主题：衲子说因果 -- 衲子
现实意义上历史上的故事更多。尤其是中国历史上佛教几乎成为意识形态的年代。结果并不好。那既然不具备真正积极意义上的现实意义。那些个东西是不是应该去他该去的地方。而不是占领人们的主要意识区间。所谓敬鬼神而远之。少造庙多造小学
不完备并不表示否定已有的科学理论。科学是建立在逻辑上面。有逻辑就有前提。追溯至最初，总有一些前提是无需通过逻辑来证明，这就是公设，大家都认为正确的公设，正如欧几里德几何的公理，老爱的相对论的五个前提假设。歌德尔的定理告诉我们，对于任何一个足够强的公设系统，总存在真理是不是能由这个公设系统证明的。对某些命题，由这个公设系统出发也是无法证明其为真还是为假。我不否认我们可以通过建立新的公设系统从而建立新的科学理论来证明更多的真理。但正如前述，这样的公设系统也仍然是不完备的。也就是说，无论什么时候，仅仅依赖科学，我们是不能回答所有问题的。
科学是不完美的，虽然我们可以让它无限接近完美。但承认科学的不完美难道不正是一个科学的态度吗？
你可以说现有科学不完美。也重来没人否定过这一点。完美的存在与否是哲学问题。否定现有理论要拿出真实的基础。否则就是文字游戏，毫无现实意义。
我只是说，存在一些真理不能被现有科学（也就是基于已有公设建立的科学）证明。并没有说因为科学不能证明某些真理那么这个科学就要被否定啊！我也是搞科学的，我自己都把先有科学理论给否定了，我还吃什么饭啊？
正是有科学不能证明的真理，我们才应该更加努力的发展科学。但也正因为这一点，我们也要认识到，目前科学不能证明，也不能否定的一些理论未必就是错的。
"真正的科学态度是在具体未知问题上不要忙于下结论"
正确.
"具体未知问题上"
而孤子所引的是一条关于公理体系的理论上的结论 (除非你能推翻Gödel定理)
"否定现有理论要拿出真实的基础。"
孤子并没有否定现有理论, 只是指出其不完备.
恕小僧愚昧, 实在不明白兄台的回答与孤子的贴子有何相干.
"现实意义上历史上的故事更多。尤其是中国历史上佛教几乎成为意识形态的年代。结果并不好。"
请举例说明. 虽然尚佛的朝代未能尽善(亦有兵燹, 如梁武帝), 但其人民总体上的安居乐业比中国历朝的平均水平还是要好出许多.
比如唐宋时中国国力强盛, 也正是佛法兴盛的年代.
印度至今还有种姓问题(婆罗门/印度教的遗产)的困扰, 正是由于其佛教衰亡了. 佛教讲究"平等, 慈悲(i.e.,博爱)", 这比当时社会的思想不知进步了多少. 当今的中国, "平等, 慈悲"这两条深入人心了吗?
"那既然不具备真正积极意义上的现实意义。"
愚以为, 佛教(就算不谈其修证的效验)对当今社会仍有极大的积极意义. 譬如, 如果人人明白佛理, 附佛外道将不再有欺骗性. 整体社会风气亦将大为好转--人民将更有爱心, 少有贪心, 少有作奸犯科, 社会成本将大大降低, 因此经济更能健康发展.
"少造庙多造小学"
造庙与造小学并不矛盾, 就象发射神舟飞船与造小学不矛盾一样. 在优化一个系统时, 不应该先冻住其余 而只优化一个参数, 而应该所有参数一起优化(比如, 梯度下降法), 这样才更有效, 优化得更快.
下文摘自<<虚云和尚年谱>>
------------------------
宣统三年辛亥 七十二岁
...
。（三）公迎藏经回滇。恭敬布化。地方官吏士民。日益钦仰。贩夫妇孺莫不知有虚云老和尚者。辛亥革命。清帝逊位。各省逐僧毁寺。风动一时。时滇省掌新军兵柄者为协统李根源。恶诸方僧徒不守戒律。将亲督队伍赴诸山逐僧拆寺。又忖公以一穷和尚。何以得民心如此其盛。必有怪事。指名捕之。祸将不测。诸寺僧皆逃窜。即公寺内僧百余人。亦皆惶惧。有劝公避者。公曰。‘诸君欲去则去耳。如属业报。避何益。以身殉佛耳。’众遂不去。数日后。李协统根源果率兵入山。驻军悉檀寺。毁金顶鸡足大王铜像。及佛殿。诸天殿。公以事急矣。乃独自下山。诣军门。出名刺请谒。守兵及阍者识公。告以速逃。祸将及。抵死不为通。公不顾。迳入。见李根源与前四川布政使赵藩同坐殿内。公前致礼。李不顾。赵与公有旧。劳之。问公从来。公陈述惟谨。时李怒形于色。厉声问曰。‘佛教何用。有何益。’公曰。‘圣人设教。总以济世利民。语其初基。则为善去恶。......从古政教并行。政以齐民。教以化民。......佛教教人治心。心为万物之本。本得其正。万物得以宁。而天下太平。’李色稍霁。又问曰。‘要这泥塑木雕作么。空费钱财。’公曰。‘佛言法相。相以表法。不以相表。于法不张。令人起敬畏之心耳。人心若无敬畏。将无恶不作。无作不恶。祸乱以成。即以世俗言。尼山塑圣。丁兰刻木。中国各宗族祠堂。以及东西各国之铜像等。亦不过令人心有所归。及起其敬信之忱。功效不可思议。语其极则。若见诸相非相。即见如来。’李略现悦容。呼左右具茶点来。李又曰。‘奚如和尚勿能作好事。反作许多怪事。成为国家废物。’公曰。‘和尚是通称。有圣凡之别。不能见一二不肖僧。而弃全僧。岂因一二不肖秀才。而骂孔子。即今先生统领兵弁。虽军纪严明。其亦一一皆如先生之聪明正直乎。海不弃鱼虾。所以为大。佛法以性为海。无所不容。僧秉佛化。护持三宝。潜移默化。其用弥彰。非全废物也。’李色喜。与公再谈。俄而笑逐频开。俄而府首致敬。于是留公晚斋。秉烛深谈。由因果分明。说到业网交织。由业果因缘。说到世界相续。众生相续。言愈畅而理愈深。李时以温语接公。时以容貌礼公。卒乃喟然太息曰。‘佛法广大如此。吾已杀僧毁寺。业重矣。奈何。’公曰。‘此一时风气使然。非公之过。愿以后极力保护。则功德莫大矣。’李公大悦。翌日。即移住祝圣寺。随公杂众僧中。蔬食数日。是时山中忽大现金光。自山顶至山麓。草木皆作黄金色。相传山中有三种光。一佛光。二银光。三金光。佛光连年皆有。银光与金光则自开山以来。仅数现耳。李益感动。执弟子礼。请公为鸡山总住持。乃引兵去。是役也。非公至道苦行。岂易转其念于刹那间哉。
...
References
[1] Pim van Lommel, et al, "Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands," THE LANCET • Vol 358 • December 15, 2001 , 2039-45. 3/6/02
[2] READER’S DIGEST, August, 2003, (pgs.122-128)
----------------------------------------------------
英文链接 for [2]
http://www.dountoothers.org/afterlife.html
中文翻译:
在2001年出版的英国医学杂志《柳叶刀》中，荷兰心脏专家Pim van Lommel 重新讲述了一个濒死现象的事例。一个44岁的心脏病患者，已处于临床死亡状态。救护车把他急速送到医院，医生用振荡器重新启动他的心脏。护士取走了他的假牙，以便使呼吸道管能插进他的喉咙。当病情稳定后，这个人被送到特护病房。
一周以后，这个病人看见了那个取走他假牙的护士，病人认出了他，尽管在前一次的相遇中，他是处于临床死亡的状态。
“你从我的嘴里取走了我的假牙。”她对护士说，然后准确的描述了他的“脱离肉体的他”看到的详细情况。
现代西方医学研究者已经不得不承认，“濒死经历”是由于大脑的功能紊乱引起的这一解释是不令人信服的，意识不仅仅只存在于大脑中。
英国的Southampton 医院的研究者们在杂志《Resuscitation》中撰文称，11%的病人回忆大脑有无意识阶段。6%的从心脏病救活的人有“濒死经历”。Van Lommel 和英国学者的研究结果显示了意识可以独立于活动的大脑而存在。
-----------------------------------------------
1991年夏天，Pam Reynolds女士，一个家住亚特兰大的三个孩子的母亲，得了脑动脉血管堵塞，有生命危险。医生告诉她必须做手术。为使手术成功，需要停止她的大脑和心脏的功能。当Reynolds女士处于麻醉状态时，有各种仪器在监测她的脑干的功能，以及她的体温、心跳、呼吸和其它主要的生命参数。她的四肢被固定了，眼睛也被蒙上了。
当医生打开她头颅时，Reynolds 女士感觉她“跳出”自己了的躯体，在高于手术医生肩膀的一个位置观察手术的过程。她发现医生拿着一个像电动牙刷的东西。一个女性的声音在抱怨病人的血管太小。Reynolds 女士觉得他们在给她的腹股沟部位做手术。“那一定不对”，她想，“这可是脑颅手术”。
但即使Reynolds女士的眼睛和耳朵被蒙上和堵上， 她所观察的真实发生了。手术锯确实像电子牙刷。手术确实发生在她的腹股沟，因为必须把她的心脏和“心-肺机”用导管连在一起。
医生把Reynolds的血液放干以便使她处于“休眠状态”。但从所有的控制仪器看，生命依然存在。Reynolds 女士发现她穿过一条通向光明的通道，在尽头，她看见了她的很久以前去世的祖母、亲戚和朋友。时间好像停止了。然后她的叔叔把她带向她的身体，并指示她回去。她像跳进了冰水中。当她苏醒后，Reynolds把她的经历告诉了医生。
“那不是我，那只是我的身体”
佛罗里达的内科专家，Barbara Rommer，在70年代早期遇到第一个“濒死经历”的病人。从1994起，她面谈了600多据报有“濒死经历”的人，并写成了一本书。下面是她记录的几个案例。
Robert Milham 在一次心脏病发作中心脏停止了，“痛苦消失了，我停留在我的身体的上面。我看着我的身体躺着，他们把船桨放在我的身上”。经过了一个自私的一生，他说，他的经历使他变成了一个慷慨的人。
企业家Ken Amick 在一次过敏反应中停止了呼吸，全身发蓝。“我可以看见颜色，我可以听到声音，我可以感觉到感情，如害怕和放松。那末，那个躺在桌之上的蓝色的东西是什么？那是我，我害怕看到他。但那不是我，那是我的身体。”
----------------------------------------------------
全文如下：http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf
首先向11兄致歉, 先前小僧用词确有不严谨之处, 我已将"灵魂"改正为"意识".
------------------------------
2041页 左下角起:
During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a
coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-ofbody
experience of a resuscitated patient:
“During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-
year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care
unit. He had been found about an hour before in a
meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives
artificial respiration without intubation, while heart
massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we
want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have
dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures
and put them onto the ‘crash car’. Meanwhile, we
continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half
the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood
pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he
is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care
unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only
after more than a week do I meet again with the patient,
who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his
medication. The moment he sees me he says: ‘Oh, that
nurse knows where my dentures are’. I am very
surprised. Then he elucidates: ‘Yes, you were there
when I was brought into hospital and you took my
dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it
had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding
drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.’ I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient’s prognosis due to his very poor medical
condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he
desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to
us that he was still alive and that we should continue
CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says
he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left
hospital as a healthy man.”
2043页左栏:
Discussion
Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients’medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE.
2044页左栏:
Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE.
We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological,
or physiological factors caused these experiences after
cardiac arrest. Sabom22 mentions a young American
woman who had complications during brain surgery for
a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and
brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.
[...]
Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE,...
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE,
the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that
consciousness and memories are localised in the brain
should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness
outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that
the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical
death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG
usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s
from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people
have described veridical perception during out-of-body
experiences at the time of this experience.31 NDE pushes
at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human
consciousness and the mind-brain relation.
此文虽然没有explicitly提出意识可以和肉身分离的假说, 但几乎排除了别的解释, thus implying 意识可能可以和肉身分离. 除非您能提出更合理的解释.
To answer these fundamental questions, research should be focused on specific elements of the NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences，这段话，我没理解错的话，transcendence只是应该考虑的一种可能解释吧。
大师对柳叶刀这篇评论有何高见？
Comments about the Dutch Study From a Family Doctor Who is also a Near-Death Experiencer
by Pam Kircher, M.D.
Van Lommel's article in Lancet is a landmark that should be read by every doctor. It reports on the largest prospective study to ask people about NDEs after a cardiac arrest. Its results show that NDEs are a significant phenomenon in the setting of cardiac arrest. Equally important, the study followed people for eight years after their NDE. The observations gleaned from that follow-up demonstrate that NDEs really are life transforming, and that the transformation in values is consistent over time. The study showed that NDEs create much greater changes in a person's life than does simply having a cardiac arrest or being near death.
Family doctors may not be the physicians present at the time of cardiac arrest, but they are the doctors people usually talk to the most, because they are the doctors people go to most often for a variety of problems. I would encourage Vital Signs readers to obtain the complete Lancet article to share with your doctor. You will be doing your family doctor a great favor. Basically, we doctors change our minds about diagnoses and treatments because of articles in medical journals.
When people read van Lommel's article, they are often drawn to one or two items in his vast array of findings. I have mentioned the major ones in my first paragraph. Near the end of the summary on this page, Dr. Greyson addresses the question of false memories, which the Lancet commentary brought up regarding patients who later recalled an NDE they hadn't initially reported on. For me, the most fascinating statistic in van Lommel's article has to do with predictors of death in the 30 days following cardiac arrest. Each person in the study was very ill or they would not have had a cardiac arrest. Statistically, it is quite common to die soon after a cardiac arrest, particularly if it occurred as the result of a chronic medical condition. In his study, Dr. van Lommel measured the depth of the NDE by using Kenneth Ring's scale. People who had more of certain aspects of the NDE (e.g., tunnels, light, life reviews) were labeled core experiencers. Having a core experience was a predictor of death over the next 30 days at a probability of .0001. That means that there is a 1-in-10,000 chance that those results would have occurred by chance alone. Why would that be?
Two very different hypotheses come to mind. One is that people with very deep experiences might be so taken with the experience that they simply allowed themselves to slip over to the other side. (The will to live is crucial in people who are extremely ill. Though it doesn't predict whether or not the person will die, it can have a bearing on when their death occurs. For example, people who are terminally ill frequently put off their own deaths until after they have finished waiting for an important day such as their daughter's wedding.) The sense of what lies ahead of NDErs may be so peaceful, that they simply complete unfinished business here and then let go into death. Another possible interpretation of the data, however, is that the depth of the NDE may be related to the severity of the illness of the person. In a statistically precise study of NDErs, Dr. Bruce Greyson found that psychic abilities are more common after a core NDE (Theta, 11:26-29, 1983). Since we have not had studies until now that interviewed large numbers of people within 30 days of their NDEs, the reasons for the relationship between the depth of the NDE and impending death have not yet been identified.
I believe that the findings in van Lommel's study challenge hospitals to ask people about their NDEs after a cardiac arrest. As it becomes common practice to invite resuscitated people to discuss their NDEs with health care personnel in the hospital, the relationship between having a core NDE and dying a short time later will become clearer. In addition, NDEs in resuscitated persons will be seen as a normal concomitant of the experience. Finally, I believe that people with NDEs will be able to adjust more easily to the changes that occur in their values, if they have some assistance with that from immediate caregivers while still in the hospital setting.
很想听听他从哲学的角度，是如何看这个问题的。
想必他近来太忙了吧。
密宗也是佛教的一枝吧。在这个佛法昌盛的时代谤佛辱憎者是要挖舌杀头的。寺庙不缴税占有大量田产。和尚喇嘛横行不法。佛教的那个真言。安，吧，牛，哄，咪。最后老百姓谐音成了 俺把你哄了。那个年代在历史上在黑暗的中世纪都是黑暗的吧。这些都是见诸史籍的。直到蒙元退至大漠。直到今天佛法的影响还在。清朝提及西藏的重要性直接点出关键点。喇嘛黄教是稳定蒙古诸部的不二法宝。至于西藏本身政教合一的奴隶制度就不用多介绍了。大家知道的够多的了。唐宋也更不是你说的那样。唐朝前期兴盛时期对佛教并无太多的青睐。反之对黄老学说推崇备至。中后期崇佛仰佛争论不休。功过历史典籍也是幢幢在案。恐怕正面评价的少。南北朝时期这个问题王猛等人和佛教界的辩论结果也是摆在那里的。至于荒唐皇帝的问题。全当笑话看了。
宋朝佛教并没有上升到是否成为国家意识形态的高度。
佛教作为个人信仰无可厚非。作为国家意识形态可就莫明奇妙了！
至于造庙造小学当然在中国很多地方是矛盾的。首先这个话是山东某地一个县委书记的原话。贫穷地区民间集资额有限大部分都舍到庙里去了。混迹着几个假和尚骗吃骗喝。信佛是为了自己下辈子当然舍得花钱了。客观上挤掉了小学。而且弄得不问苍生问鬼神的荒唐事儿越来越多。迎合一部分人逃避现实的需要。对社会进步没有好处。
这里要强调佛教里修身养性的功夫还是要吸取的。包括我自己。也觉得有用。但是什么鬼鬼神神的。六道之类。只能敬鬼神而远之了。我不逃避现实。
这好象不是八卦吧：）
说元朝的国教是喇嘛教应该不错，但是说是意识形态也许过了，因为他们的意识形态应该是“暴力征服”，而且他们把喇嘛教作为国教，也不是以“佛学”作为意识形态，差别很大。
您说的造庙与小学的问题，确实存在，但那不是佛家的错，而是歪嘴和尚把经念歪了。真和尚行脚天下都无所谓，不会在乎一个房子。
如果本来应该造小学的钱，拿来造了庙宇，自然有问题，但如果本来也不会用来造小学的，而是用来贪污浪费的钱用来造庙宇，有什么不好呢：）
另外，佛学不是用世之学，不适合用在经营天下上，释迦牟尼本身原是皇族都弃位出家。如果有人用来做幌子说政治，那不是佛学本意，是不应该把帐算在佛家头上的。
华兄意下如何：）