主题：【原创】美国人打仗怕死吗？ -- 晨枫
家园 Re 快吻兄 谢回复。
容我重复你的观点“my overall point is that the rich in US is just as patriotic as all people in this forum”
和你的证据““… At the same time, in these wars the top three deciles by income suffered only 25 percent/Korea, 26 percent/Vietnam , and 23 percent/Iraq of the casualties, respectively…”
先定义一下我们讨论的标的。我们只谈911后富人和穷人是不是一样patriotic/爱国。“patriotic/爱国”是一个unobservable的concept/construct，让我用几个indicators来测量，
1.意见的表达。如喊口号写文章。
2.出钱（物）。缴税和捐款。
3.出汗。如帮志愿军免费炒面，照顾伤员等等。在军工后勤营利性企业打工拿工资利润不算。
4.出人。参加，尤其是上战场流血。
如我们来用这几点来比比富人和穷人谁更爱国。
1.意见的表达是最没有的。lip service 又是富人最能干了，就不谈了。
2.出钱。反恐战的开销来自于国家税收。我们假设美国的税收制度是公平的（实际上很多人已经在抱怨富人的收入增加跟快而交的税不够，对穷人不公）。我没看到富人有大规模为前线捐款物的。
3.出汗。我没看到富人有大规模为前线义务劳动照顾伤员的。至少在照顾伤员上，穷人作了大部分或全部工作。
4.出人流血。除了Pat Tillman(出生平民的体育明星，其实并不是很有钱)，我没有听说有任何贵族（像肯尼迪）和富豪（如巴菲特索罗斯）家的子弟伤亡的。
你的证据已经支持了富人越来越少流血了。我再加两句。
“the top three deciles”本身就太广以至于无实证价值。请看以下资料（虽是2003的，和现在应该差不远），
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
你家庭要一年挣15万就到TOP5%
约12-13万就TOP10%
9万就TOP20%
7万就TOP30
小弟不才，也荣幸的进了5%了。可是我丝毫没觉得自己是富人。那7万9万的更不算了。我先前说的5%是富人已经是给那TOP1%或0.1%真正控制美国的精英很大的面子了。
终上所述，我认为穷人比富人实际要爱国的多。
- 复 Re 快吻兄
家园 Re: Re 快吻兄 Thank you for the insightful reply. Here is my two cents:
>>1.意见的表达是最没有的。lip service 又是富人最能干了，就不谈了。
Partially agreed. The difference I like to say is that in US not only are the rich good at lip service, but also the poor. It is across the board. (In fact you puzzled me a little about the "最没有的" part. But I think I guessed it right)
>>2.出钱。反恐战的开销来自于国家税收。我们假设美国的税收制度是公平的（实际上很多人已经在抱怨富人的收入增加跟快而交的税不够，对穷人不公）。我没看到富人有大规模为前线捐款物的。
The following is from a conservative site. Cannot promise it is 100% accurate but should not be too far from the reality:
Taxes paid by highest incomes
The top 1% pay 22.7% of taxes.
The top 10% pay 50% of taxes.
The top 20% pay 65.3% of taxes.
The top 40% pay 84.3% of taxes.
Taxes paid by lowest incomes
The bottom 20% pay 1.1% of taxes.
The bottom 40% pay 6.1% of taxes.”
As for "大规模为前线捐款物的。", hm, unheard of.(I can be really wrong about it) I guess someone has to come up to be the expert and provide some sources to support the claim, eh?
>>3.出汗。我没看到富人有大规模为前线义务劳动照顾伤员的。至少在照顾伤员上，穷人作了大部分或全部工作。
Agreed. But aren’t we talking about 5% vs 95%? It must be true that the poor do more. Also, do not forget that the doctors/physicians/surgeons/etc. are pretty much in the class of the rich. And forgive me for being ignorant, I have not heard of any news about any case of “大规模为前线义务劳动照顾伤员”
>>4.出人流血。除了Pat Tillman (出生平民的体育明星，其实并不是很有钱)，我没有听说有任何贵族（像肯尼迪）和富豪（如巴菲特索罗斯）家的子弟伤亡的。
Good point! (Though 肯尼迪 family’s boys at right age to serve pretty died out. You cannot really blame them. Purely tragic.)
Cannot really find out the break down based on families. DOD does not seem provide such info.(Do you have any info about it? Could you kindly share it?) The only info I can help with is the following (congressional members' kids serving in military)
Sen Jim Webb (D-VA) son, Marine serving in OIF
Sen Tim Johnson (D-SD) son, Marine serving in OIF
Sen Max Baucus (D-MT) lost a nephew in OIF
Sen Sam Brownback (R-KS) niece & nephew in OIF
Sen Kit Bond (R-MO) son, Marine serving OIF
Rep Joe Wilson (R-SC) son, serving OIF
Rep Todd Akin (R-MO) son, serving OIF
Rep Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL) stepson & his wife serving in OIF
Rep Kenny Hulshof (R-MO) brother-in-law, soldeir serving in OIF
Rep Duncan Hunter (R-CA) son, Marine serving in OIF
>>小弟不才，也荣幸的进了5%了。可是我丝毫没觉得自己是富人。
Congratulations! Well done! Heaven knows it is hard to get into the 5% bracket. Best wishes for you.“富人” or not, do not downplay your success. If you really want to know the situation for the poor and why you are indeed rich, let me know. I am more than happy to help.
Last but not least, I really do not understand why we even argue. You asked the question “美军在伊阿二地已阵亡超过6300人，不知最富的5%的家庭有没有贡献约300名子弟呢” I tried to help you and provided some data. You changed the topic to “我特别想看看最富的1%的家庭有没有贡献出63名男儿的性命”Once again, I tried to help you and provided the some other data. You changed the top to “我们只谈911后富人和穷人是不是一样patriotic/爱国”. Well I am not a professional guy of war stats and all I am trying is to help you with some info you need/ask for. More, I am really bad at arguing.
I did say “my overall point is that the rich in US is just as patriotic as all people in this forum.” I guess I could be quite wrong. Overall, few people in this forum (including me) served/is serving/will serve in the military. (I myself cannot claim I am more patriotic than the average poor or rich and I don’t.) What I tried to say is there is no much difference among peoples. (not absolutely no, but not by much)
I hope it helps. Have a wonderful day.
Cheers and good luck.
- -- 系统封号 --。偏要看
家园 招兵程序充其量只是个技术细节而已。 “这种招兵程序能招到的兵员取决于被招兵者自己的意愿”
---好奇的问一下，如果个个都想在后方吹空调，没有任何人选择去钻山洞，您怎么办？您难道不需要提供更多的胡萝卜来改变“被招兵者自己的意愿”吗？
再说了，你要不当兵还有别的选择吗？有待遇那么好的工作吗？
这让我想起那句名言“到得江心，且问你要吃刀子面还是馄饨”。贼船不好上啊。
家园 你是"粥不足何不食肉糜乎" 美国大学的奖学金, 好像偏向于底层阶级, 但这对申请者的成绩有要求. 我想你也不会否认, 一般情况下, 参军并不是底层阶级的唯一出路, 与参军相比, 通过当体育明星, 娱乐明星, 甚至通过刻苦学习成功上浮到中层以上阶层的底层人并不少. 而你则简单地将其歪曲成"参军是底层人唯一的出路"
贼船是不好上, 尤其美国的底层民众选择那么多的情况下.
家园 你这个问题是无效问题. 美国越战后由征兵制改行募兵制.在募兵制下什么人去当兵你自己可以想象.当年无论贫富贵贱共赴国难的的情况大概很少会出现了.
家园 义务兵还是可以的吧 话说这个话题我不太清楚，有没有人来解释一下。
家园 古时候，西方国家的观念是参军为贵族的职责和荣耀 两次世界大战，欧洲战场上的军人很多都是贵族。
美国也是受这样的影响，越是过去，上层社会子弟参军的就越多。现在礼崩乐坏，上层社会已经无耻很多了。上层社会的子弟虽然仍把参军作为荣耀的事，但很多都躲在后勤部门或是预备役，不肯上前线。小布什的侄子就是海军预备役军官。
家园 你忽略了很重要的一点：参军也是底层阶级跳龙门的一个可行途 你提到的只是那些将参军作为义务的阶层。越战和朝战时期，美军还实行的是征兵制，士气低落当然是很正常的事情，但现在美军已经是募兵制，你愿意当这个职业，自然也要承担这个职业带来的职业风险。
而且很重要的一点你没有注意到：事实上从驻扎伊拉克和阿富汗的美军，尤其是华裔美军士兵的记录来看，基层士兵的士气远比你想像得要好得多。
除了军人世家，没人想通过来军队镀金，所以你的担心和疑问对美军来说根本不是问题。
美军现在的招兵难也不是你所想像的那样因为战争的不义导致的Blabla（事实上很多美国大兵对于伊拉克和阿富汗这样的战争很自豪，人家认为自己从事的是帮助别国人民实现民主的正义事业），而是和平环境下美国白人有更多更好的选择去享受更轻松更安全的工作和收入。类似的例子，我国作为目前人口第一的大国，不也出现了征兵难现象吗，难道我国也搞了什么不正义的对外战争吗？
家园 Re: 美军现在的招兵难也不是你所想像的... Great point. The following is from a letter of a soldier explaining why joining the army. The time was 2007 when the economy was still rosy,
...I have a number of reasons I wish to join the Army and commit a period of my life to military service. I believe it is the obligation of every patriot to take a turn, as their fathers and grandfathers did before them, in defending the interests and freedoms that we enjoy here in the United States. Once Gen. Schwarzkopf was asked in an interview where his sense of duty came from; he replied “It's the sense of duty that keeps you going sometimes when things get very, very rough. Somebody's got to do it. And if you don't, who will?” I think he worded that perfectly. It is the brave people who stand up when there is a pressing need that deserve the most honors. I am also related to or acquainted with a number of veterans of major conflicts and I admire the courage and pride they get from their time spent serving in the military during their lives.
I believe that I might be provided a chance to bend my will and my intellect into military service I will be a credit to the service. It is my intention to try to be the best soldier and patriot that I can be. I wish to provide by example what excellent things a person can accomplish when they are dedicated to a cause that they believe in and are willing to work hard. I believe the military takes your blood sweat and tears and provides you discipline, strength and pride in return and I would like to be a part of that...
Cannot promise it is perfectly authentic but there seems no point for someone in US faking anything like this.
Regards,
家园 最近美国招兵也不难了 那天听NPR，说是现在要参军得排很久的队，几个月甚至几年。
因为经济危机，老兵都赖在军队不愿意退伍。退伍了没这么好福利的工作可干了。没空额新兵也挤不进去。
家园 打几仗空额就出来了
家园 目前美军基层士兵士气高是不奇怪的。 原因不外乎二个。
第一，待遇好（对穷人）且并（感觉上）不太危险。回想起我有一次回美，旁边坐着个在关岛当兵回美休假的黑人小伙，那脸上幸福感绝对无法掩饰。试想你是一黑人，出生在芝加哥南区，父亲酗酒，母亲乱性，哥哥贩毒，姐姐卖淫，旁边街上每天死上一两个，当兵真的是不错的选择。每月有工资，年年有假期，退伍后还有免费读书等好处，当然happy了，如果不用去伊拉克阿富汗你就赚大发了。就是去了也没什么大不了的，没事时在军营里打电玩，上网，撸管。有事了全身防弹衣，坐在装甲车里出去，看谁不顺眼就开枪。加上对手的装备又是处于石器时代。这比在芝加哥南区站街卖CRAP感觉上要安全得多得多了，尤其是政府不让你看见星条旗覆盖的棺材的照片时。
第二，道德上的正义感。很多美国老百姓普遍文化素质低劣，除了拜脖经什么也不读。整天给华尔街用“God bless America”和免租湿疣洗脑，自己就感觉是弥赛亚附体了，给人用自己交的血汗钱把自己儿子送去国外送死都不知道，甚至还PROUD的不得了。世上除了“被卖了还帮人数钱”之外，还有比这更SB的事吗？如果二战的美军在客观上干了好事的话，美国在越南，巴拿马，伊拉克，阿富汗早就把诺曼底海滩上挣来的CREDIT用光了。
家园 你既然这样看, 那就证明你也不否认美军士气还是比较高的 我前面说过，很多美军士兵是把参军作为改善自己阶级地位的一个阶梯，因此你就将之等同于整个美军的都是为别的目的而参军的。但事实上，任何一个国家的战斗力主体都不是列兵，而是士官，恰恰是美军士官，大多是准备在军队中有所图的，这部分人你接触过没呢？而且士官在战场上起着指挥班级分队的表率作用，他们的态度才会真正影响到美军的士气，但我们从所有战地士兵发布的文字来看，这些士官的表现还是很尽责的。只要士官阶层对战争没有失望，美军都有能力在人力上把伊拉克和阿富汗继续打下去。
至于所谓道德优越感，这个是你嫉恨也没办法的，人有了信仰就什么都不怕，哪怕这个信仰是错误的。这一点上，你再怎么否认正义性，也无法否认大多数美军士兵在正义性上的态度是积极的。
阿富汗和伊拉克对美军的影响更多只是技术上和策略上的，而非根基上的。相比70年代越南战争后的美军，现在的美军起码在社会上是受欢迎的，而且仍然保持着很强的积极性。只要美国经济能发生转变，美军一样会立即再次变得咄咄逼人，而不是一蹶不振。
家园 美军真正危险的岗位还是少数 伊拉克阿富汗的美军人数只有几万人，和在全世界各地的美军比起来，还是少数。本土美军应该没太大危险。韩国美军就算危险也大不到哪里去。所以参军危险性不是太大