主题：【整理原创】朝鲜战争中的细菌战（系列终结篇） -- 思炎
家园 首先，你这个回复的态度不错。至于，我给了这么多 论据后，特别是最后一贴的有关frank olson的纪录片和《肮脏的小秘密》的纪录片后，如你所说的：
这个问题本来就是信者恒信。如果有人随便怎么样也不相信，那也不是我的事了。但参与讨论的除非有合理论据证明我的论证是错误。。。不然，我想大多数看贴的自己心里有个答案。
我写这贴，最主要是看到“北明”的贴，还有网上一些什么苏联解密文件、中朝政治谎言啦。。。引起我疑问的，也是为了知道真相，我也不想被骗嘛。。。才查看资料。。。写这贴的。
偏偏就是这个朝鲜细菌战，美国人似乎根本就不想保密了，供认参加过细菌战的25名飞行员，从战略空军到战术空军到陆战队飞行员都有，除了那几个上校中校算中级军官，其他的都是些尉级。当时不是没做保密工作，那frank olson不是被杀了吗？其他人，敢讲吗？就算不杀，自己也知道下场不会好了？叛国罪是少不了的了。
特别那时是冷战时期，当时美国大多数老百姓是相信美国政府告诉他们“飞行员被communist中国洗脑了”。西方也把communist宣传的很吓人的，其实现在不是还有大部分西方民众一听communist就有负面和偏见了。
照理说，细菌战这种事应该是美国的最高机密，按照思炎MM的揭露，美国人到现在还捂得死死的不肯透露半点。所以当年就更应该采取严格的保密措施了。而且美国人搞秘密军事行动应该是老手了，在抗美援朝之前几年的诺曼底登陆之类的最大型的军事行动都能把德国人瞒到最后。这个和“诺曼底登陆之类的最大型的军事行动”不一样，细菌战行动前中朝方也不知道啊。。。但这个细菌和炸弹投下来后，发现情况后，中朝方才调查，才知道的，证据在那呢。
这些贴里已经写了。
这相当于四万吨炸弹的细菌弹投下去，杀伤效果是几百个老百姓得病，12个志愿军病亡。这细菌武器的杀伤效果，跟飞机往地上丢石头都差不多了，让飞机装上四万吨石头往朝鲜的城市或者共军的阵地上丢，砸到的说不定还不止这几百个。根据猜测，推算的投了多少炸弹跟帖子的“有没有发动细菌战”的主题没直接关系。至于杀伤力效果不好，我贴里也写了，是实验阶段。后来，美国细菌武器的发展也得益于此。所以也不是脑子不好使，是计划太大胆。你也看了上次我的回帖，美国在旧金山，加拿大还做实验呢。当时，也没人知道，也是后来爆出来的。
现在，就是差一个美国会不会最终公开承认的问题。。。但我估计没那么容易， 不然也要等那帮老兵都死了后。。。
美国现在基本上是对这个问题是，随便你怎么说，怎么发现新的证据，反正就“装鸵鸟”。。。
美国不是照样到现在还没把伊拉克的大规模杀伤性武器给找出来呢。。。
本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)家园 突然想起来这个北明不会就是写徐良临阵脱逃的那个吧？ 家园 就是那位。萨苏曾专门撰文揭她的脸皮 萨苏：给北明先生 我所见的徐良 之一。老萨也发在河里了萨苏:【原创】徐良说：你比我牛啊。。
引用二段
关于徐良这篇文章，我可真是笑不出来了。那倒不是觉得有人给徐泼脏水，而是为作者北明先生悲哀，您就算造假，也稍微下点儿功夫好不好，说起来北明先生还是有名气的作家呢，我对“作家”这两个字，从来没有感到这样的廉价，这以后还怎么让大伙儿读您的文章呢。最后，听北明先生说徐良是无期徒刑，就发一张他“服刑期间”的照片吧。2000年徐良访问老山看望战友的照片，作者老山之眸。粗粗一看，这小子好像“服刑期间”还升了中校了。。。以下是北明的文章，也是引发我写作这篇关于徐良的文字的原因。后来我才知道，北明原来是《柏林墙故事》的作者，那篇文章我曾为之深深感动，所以当读到这篇关于徐良的文章时，我惊讶于其荒唐，更深的，是痛切于作者竟然是这位北明。后来才知道，这时的北明，已经是美国自由亚洲电台“华盛顿手记”专题节目的主持人了，不能不慨叹一句 -- 政治，对一个人的良心来说，是何等的可怕。
关于北明，有河友说hopeful:北明似乎不是马悲鸣。
通宝推：思炎,深夜腌的萝卜丝,家园 啊 被萨大揭皮 还真是杯具啊。
家园 对不起， 你那个谁被杀到底是怎么一回事就凭一部片子就定论 了？连最后那21个到中国的战俘后来回美国都没打成是叛国罪，你说什么就是什么？ 你那文教授好歹还弄一个31条出来说事， 你怎么不学学，张嘴就来？ 还什么下场不会好，这种揭政府黑幕的事情有从来都不少人干，上次那个伊拉克虐囚的事情不就是美军自己人揭出来的？真揭出来死的只能是他下命令的上司，自己是英雄了。
本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)家园 你这个回帖可太高层次了。差点以为是风雨来的留言 对不起， 你那个谁被杀到底是怎么一回事就凭一部片子就定论 [ yfb ] 于:2010-03-24 06:29:31 复:2796924了？连最后那21个到中国的战俘后来回美国都没打成是叛国罪，你说什么就是什么？
哈哈，这样的逻辑。。。佩服。
frank Olson 被杀的事，当然定论了，你在这个问题上没搞清楚，不承认，那么你的逻辑理解力需要提高。这是很关键的一点，其他的你就象[虎王2006]下面的评论，和你讨论，很浪费我的时间。
就给你一些来源，自己好好读读。。。。
A California history professor, Kathryn Olmstead, has discovered documents at the Gerald Ford library which were written by Cheney and Rumsfeld.They show how far the White House went to conceal information about Olson's death — and his role in preparing anthrax and other biological weapons. .
Cheney and Rumsfeld were given the task of covering up the details of Frank Olson's death. At the time, Rumsfeld was White House Chief of Staff to President Gerald Ford. Dick Cheney was a senior White House assistant.
The documents uncovered by Professor Olmstead include one that states "Dr Olson's job was so sensitive that it is highly unlikely that we would submit relevant evidence".
In another memo, Cheney acknowledges that "the Olson lawyers will seek to explore all the circumstances of Dr Olson's employment, as well as those concerning his death. In any trial, it may become apparent that we are concealing evidence for national security reasons and any settlement or judgement reached thereafter could be perceived as money paid to cover up the activities of the CIA".
Frank Olson's family received US$750,000 to settle their claims against the US government.
Unfortunately, the U.S. government and military have experimented on U.S. soldiers and civilians without their informed consent or knowledge on a number of occasions since 1945 and when caught or exposed, have gone into elaborate cover-up operations.The New York Times (11/19/92) wrote in an article entitled: "Canada to Pay the Victims of Mind-Altering Treatment": Canada has agreed to compensate victims of psychiatric experiments carried out mainly in the 1950s and financed in part by the Central Intelligence Agency.
The experiments began after some prisoners returned from the Korean War brainwashed, and Western intelligence agencies began studies and experiments on the nature and possibility of mind control.John Marks, a former State Dept. official whose 1979 book, The Search for the Manchurian Candidate", called attention to the experiments, said that a CIA front called the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, funneled more than $60,000 to Dr. Cameron for the studies. Ottawa gave him more than $200,000.The 11/7/88 New York Times carried an article entitled, "The CIA and the Evil Doctor", which wrote: The Justice Department agreed last month to pay $750,000 to settle a lawsuit brought by nine victims of the Central Intelligence Agency's brainwashing experiments in the 1950s. The research was conducted by the late Dr. D. Ewen Cameron, one of the most famous psychiatrists of his time.What caught the Central Intelligence Agency's eye was his comparison of 'psychic driving' to techniques of coerced interrogation and brainwashing. Using one its front organizations, the agency solicited a grant application from Dr. Cameron and funded his work. With the CIA funds, Dr. Cameron continued his experiments. Using patients who came to him for psychiatric treatment, but without disclosing that he was experimenting, he tried to break through patients' resistance to the taped messages.
To this end, he induced severe regression in the patients, using combinations of extremely intensive electric shock, barbiturate-induced sleep for up to 60 days at a stretch, sensory deprivation and hallucinogenic drugs. These techniques left patients dazed, confused, incontinent and often in a state of utter panic. The CIA funding was secret.
The relief bill for Thornwell would provide $1.7 million, more than twice as much as the $750,000 award made in 1976 to the family of Frank R. Olson. Olson, a civilian biochemist who worked for the Army at Fort Detrick, MD, jumped to his death in 1953 after CIA agents laced his drink with LSD.Members of Olson's family, who live in Frederick, MD, did not learn until 1975 that he had been drugged. They later received a $750,000 settlement from the government.Olson plunged from a room at the Hotel Statler on Nov. 28, 1953, nine days after the CIA gave him LSD without his knowledge. The experiment was part of a CIA program known as MK-ULTRA to study the effects of LSA and other drugs for intelligence and military purposes.
After learning he was given the mind-bending drug, Olson sank into a paranoid depression. He told his Army superiors he wanted to quit his job as one of the nation's top germ-warfare scientists, and his family now says they believe he was slain because he had become a security risk.
来源：外链出处
这篇文章里有好多美国政府掩盖做实验的秘密的例子，好可怕，好黑哦。
还有，我文章里早就写了：
When the prisoners of war who had made these confessions returned from Korea in the summer of 1953, they were interrogated by the Artichoke team, which had announced its eagerness to do so weeks in advance. In a memorandum to the top leadership of the CIA, the team said it wanted to use those “who have been exposed to and accepted in varying degrees Communist indoctrination ... as unique research material in the Artichoke work.”Among other things, hypnosis, anaesthetics and LSD were to be used on the former POWs. In this way, Artichoke hoped to gain insight into the enemy’s interrogation methods and to make sure that the returned soldiers did not work for the other side.
German documentary charges US used biological weapons in Korean War
在接受纪录片采访时，Cournoyer证实了这一点：美空军确实在朝鲜战争期间测试了生物武器。
本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)家园 我已经明白了，这其实是逻辑的辩论，这样回不回答重要吗？ 家园 呵呵， 上次是某人挂免战牌，这次是整个论坛挂免战牌了？ 我早就说了， 每次上来都会碰到一点很有喜感的人和事，当然，这次也不例外哦？
废话少说，转入正题。
我问你那些去了中国的美国战俘后来回去有没有被打成叛国罪怎么不敢回答啊？ 是不知道还是说不出口啊？
呵呵，那个frank Olson的儿子不是手握确凿证据吗？ 不是连拉姆斯菲尔德和切尼都牵扯进来了吗？ 怎么就要了区区75万美元就撒手了啊？ 居然杀父之仇都不报？不把这些恶贯满盈的罪犯绳之以法？ 人家那几个回来的美国战俘官司可是打到最高法院的哦？ 跟你讲。
好了，写了那么多废话有什么用啊？来正面回答我几个问题好了，不要问几个问题都不敢正面回应哦。
第一， 美帝到底在朝鲜是怎么使用宣传弹散布鼠疫炭疽之类的烈性传染病的？
第二， 一方面已经大规模使用，空军陆军海军陆战队轮番上阵，前后知情者众多，另一方面五十多年过去，这些人里面居然没有人站出来踢爆这个惊天罪行？仅是一个怕杀人灭口能解释的了的？ 或者从另一方面来看既然是如此秘密，都要到杀人灭口的程度，为什么一开始摊子铺的那么大？
第三， 美帝为何在冬季发动细菌战？ 投点下来就冻死的苍蝇有意义吗？
第四， 当初中朝方面不是也大肆宣扬美帝使用毒气吗？ 这又是怎么回事啊？
这些都不是细节，而是一些大关节上面无法自圆其说，文学者已经试过了还是不行，也许你能解释？呵呵。
家园 【挂免战牌？还整个论坛挂免战牌了？又发挥想象力和意淫了】 你这些问题帖子和回复里都可以找到答案了。。。目前就你一人还在发问，你应该好好检查一下你的逻辑和思维。
再浪费点时间，看好：
1.我问你那些去了中国的美国战俘后来回去有没有被打成叛国罪怎么不敢回答啊？ 是不知道还是说不出口啊？
这么NC的问题也问得出来，而且问两遍。。。可见此人逻辑有问题。要么就是故意胡搅蛮缠。
我的文章中早就说了，那些美俘被威胁叛国罪，而改说当时招供是被中方洗脑。这样当然不用打成叛国罪了。
当中朝公开美俘的供词时，美方相当震惊，为了掩盖真相，便在国际上和对美国民众大肆宣称：美国没有使用细菌武器，中朝方的指控是propaganda “政治谎言”，那些被俘的飞行员一定全部被“Red China”洗脑了（have been “brainwashed”）。私下里用军事法庭的惩罚和“叛国罪”威胁曾招供的军人军官，迫使他们再翻供，并让Col. Walker F. Mahurin做为“germ warfare confess”的代表出来讲话，说他们是被中朝威逼和洗脑才做“假招供”的。When the prisoners of war who had made these confessions returned from Korea in the summer of 1953, they were interrogated by the Artichoke team, which had announced its eagerness to do so weeks in advance. In a memorandum to the top leadership of the CIA, the team said it wanted to use those “who have been exposed to and accepted in varying degrees Communist indoctrination ... as unique research material in the Artichoke work.”Among other things, hypnosis, anaesthetics and LSD were to be used on the former POWs. In this way, Artichoke hoped to gain insight into the enemy’s interrogation methods and to make sure that the returned soldiers did not work for the other side.
2.呵呵，那个frank Olson的儿子不是手握确凿证据吗？ 不是连拉姆斯菲尔德和切尼都牵扯进来了吗？ 怎么就要了区区75万美元就撒手了啊？ 居然杀父之仇都不报？不把这些恶贯满盈的罪犯绳之以法？
你记录片看了吗？还有看了我的回帖，居然问出这个问题，啥脑子？ 这是美方为了不让他告政府，以免彻底调查这个案子，不然最高机密就会被暴露，才付钱给Olson家庭。 美国政府不心虚，为何付钱啊？？？
还有，Eric到这里为止，是因为他儿子对他说的话：爸爸,请不要以那种神秘的方式死去，我真不想让自己再陷人您现在的这种困境。
那就是，他如果再不撒手，他也可能跟他父亲frank的命运一样！
这里有frank olson project的网站，自己看一下，还有问题的话，就是再一次证明你的无聊，逻辑有问题
看看吧。。。网站里面有好多美国政府和CIA干的肮脏事。我本来倒没想贴出链接。你胡搅蛮缠，虽然是浪费我的时间，不过，你越缠，也等于让美国政府干的肮脏事越多曝光。
你回帖里说的：
人家那几个回来的美国战俘官司可是打到最高法院的哦？ 跟你讲。那么欢迎你给大家讲讲为何要打到最高法院呢？是不是美国政府和军方告他们了？
那么，最后他们是不是改口说是：中方给洗脑了？还是坚持说美国使用了细菌战？你回答完，好象也可以回答你自己提出的第一个问题了。
你说：
好了，写了那么多废话有什么用啊？来正面回答我几个问题好了，不要问几个问题都不敢正面回应哦。看，是你自己写了那么多废话。
第一， 美帝到底在朝鲜是怎么使用宣传弹散布鼠疫炭疽之类的烈性传染病的
什么宣传弹？那是细菌弹，还想来故意混淆其他人。
1、投掷装满了混有尘埃与细菌的炸弹，这种炸弹将在半空中即打开来，并借风力散播带有细菌的尘埃。2、利用喷雾器装置，由飞机直接散布尘埃，因此在散布尘埃的地方，空气中即有细菌。
3、或者投掷装满细菌尘埃的容器或炸弹，这一类容器会在水中开启，也可以用会被水渗湿后启开的硬纸盒，把它投到贮水池或湖沼中，这些地方的水是人和动物都要饮用的，并且这些地方的昆虫会染上细菌并传播它们。
投掷昆虫的方法是：
1、投掷外形和普通炸弹一样的细菌弹，但这种炸弹中，装满了带有细菌的昆虫，这种炸弹触地后即开启并放散出这些昆虫来。
2、投掷盛有昆虫的硬纸制容器，这种容器触地后即行裂开，昆虫就会带着细菌逸散出来。
3、或以动物散播昆虫。
以动物散播细菌的方法是：
1、以装有降落伞的容器投放老鼠、兔子或其他小野物，这种容器触地后即放出这类动物，这些动物遍身沾满带有细菌的虱子和跳蚤。
2、或用船只把这类动物从敌人后方海岸放到陆上。
亦有其他撒布细菌方法：
1、投掷带有细菌的传单，大便纸，信封及其他纸制物品。
2、投掷混有细菌之肥皂或衣服。
3、投掷装有细菌的墨水的自来水笔。
4、或给敌军部队投掷沾染细菌之食物。
第二， 一方面已经大规模使用，空军陆军海军陆战队轮番上阵，前后知情者众多，另一方面五十多年过去，这些人里面居然没有人站出来踢爆这个惊天罪行？仅是一个怕杀人灭口能解释的了的？ 或者从另一方面来看既然是如此秘密，都要到杀人灭口的程度，为什么一开始摊子铺的那么大？
这个上面其实已经回复了。还有，就算他们出来说，美国不是说美俘被洗脑了吗。。。再说了，纪录片《肮脏的小秘密》里采访了当时的美俘Kenneth L. Enoch，后来回美国翻供，说是因为受到中国的逼迫和洗脑才made False confession的。在纪录片采访中又说中方没有逼迫他和给他洗脑。
那么说明，他当时的供认是真的。而且，他在纪录片中对细菌战也承认了一半！
为什么一开始摊子铺的那么大，你要去问美国政府啊。。。不过，人家连采访都不肯接受呢，估计他们也不会告诉你的。你是不是又有什么解密文件跟大家爆料啊？
第三， 美帝为何在冬季发动细菌战？ 投点下来就冻死的苍蝇有意义吗？
其实你所有问题早就解释过了。。。所以，回复你的确是浪费时间。。。
其他的问题不是早就回答了吗？ 早就说过美军是做实验了
计划的主要目标是从一开始的测试到使用，根据现场条件下，各种要素的细菌战，并可能扩大范围测试，在稍后，根据在朝鲜获得的结果，成为常规作战武器。不同病菌的有效性，特别是它们的传播和疫情质量在各种不同的情况下都被进行测试，看是否每一种疾病对敌方行动造成了严重干扰破坏，还是只是造成轻微不便，或者是完全被控制，没有造成任何问题。。。。。。。
这些试验的时期长短虽然不明确，但是要足以包括朝鲜任何极端的温度。（那么认为美军没有进行细菌战，并质疑在冬天放置苍蝇是愚蠢的方法，说是实在想象不出一个思维正常的指挥官会在不考虑这些作战条件下就采用这些手段的，现在应该明白为什么美军要如此做了）
第四， 当初中朝方面不是也大肆宣扬美帝使用毒气吗？ 这又是怎么回事啊？
你总是跟我扯毒气，告诉你这不是我主题的内容了。。。下面已经有人回答你了，你跟我说这个就是转进，胡搅蛮缠。
好了，我现在再贴点资料给你阅读：
Fort Detrick, Md., was created in the middle of World War II and became the center for America's biological warfare efforts. But that role shifted in 1969, the government says, to focus solely on defense against the threat of biological weapons.Then called Detrick Air Field, the science and research facility housed four biological agent production plants.
Anthrax was considered the most important agent. Simulants were tested, and one bomb was readied for production in 1944. One million bombs were ordered, though the order was canceled when the war ended in 1945.
During the 1950s, the biological weapons program was among the most classified within the Pentagon. There was an emphasis on biological agents for use against enemy forces as well as plants and animals.
The Army says no biological weapons were used during the Korean War, though such allegations were made by the Chinese and the Koreans.
Growing Protests
One plan at Fort Detrick in the late 1950s was to use the yellow fever virus against an enemy by releasing infected mosquitoes by airplane or helicopter. Detrick's labs were capable of producing a half-million mosquitoes per month, with plans for up to 130 million per month.
链接：
In 1950 the U.S. government, concurrent with the growing tensions of the early Cold War, and especially the outbreak of the Korean War, secretly launched a heavily funded and far-ranging crash program in biological warfare. Gas warfare development expanded at an equal pace, especially work with nerve gas. Sarin was standardized in 1951, but emphasis shifted in 1953 to the more potent V-seriesnerve gases first developed by the British. VX was standardized in 1957, though a standardized delivery system was not developed.
But biological warfare had a higher priority than chemical: indeed, the biological warfare crash program introduced in 1950 shared highest-level priority with atomic warfare. The primary objective for biological weapons was to acquire an early operational capability within the emergency war plan for general war against the SovietUnion and China.
By the time of the Korean War, an agent and bomb were standardized both for anticrop and antipersonnel use while research and development went forward with a broad range of agents and delivery systems.
In the post–Korean War period many agents and several delivery systems were standardized, one of the more interesting being the standardization in 1959 of yellow fever carried by mosquito vectors. Further, the U.S. government secretly took over the Japanese biological warfare program, acquiring records of experiments with live subjects that killed at least 10,000 prisoners of war, some probably American. In exchange, the perpetrators of the Japanese program were spared prosecution as war criminals.Another indication of the priority of biological warfare was the adoption inearly 1952 of a secret first-use strategy
. U.S. military strategists and civilian policymakers took advantage of ambiguities in government policy toallow the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) to put a secret offensive strategy in place
. Though the United States reaffirmed World War II retaliation-only policy for gas warfare in 1950, the JCS after some debate decided that it did not by implication apply to biological warfare. They concluded there was no government policy on such weapons, and the Defense Department concurred. Consequently the JCS sent directives to the services making first-use strategy operational doctrine, subject to presidential approval. During the Korean War, the United States also created a deeply buried infrastructure for covert biological warfare in the Far East.Data from the Chinese archives for the Korean War, corroborated by evidence from the U.S. and Canadian archives, builds a strong case for the United States experimenting with biological weapons during the Korean War. The issue remains controversial in the face of U.S. government denial. In 1956 the United States brought policy into line with strategic doctrine by adopting an official first-use offensive policy for biological warfare subject to presidential approval.来源： Nature First USA - Journal-Chemical and Biological Warfare
A third crucial document – marked “Top Secret” – showed that in September 1951, the US Joint Chiefs of Staff issued orders to begin “large scale field tests… to determine the effectiveness of specific BW [bacteriological warfare] agents under operational conditions.”If these “field tests” were indeed undertaken, then they may have drawn again on the expertise of the Japanese biological warfare team.
前日军731人员（后为美军服务）证实了美国征调前日军“731部队”部队长石井四郎中将与北野政次中将及“100”细菌部队部队长若松勇次郎中将率领前731部队成员在韩战期间赴韩国发动细菌战以阻止志愿军南进。
好了，你问我那么多问题了。。。我就问你一个问题，你来回答：
[FLY]你这么胡搅蛮缠拼命替美国洗白是为哪般啊？[/FLY]
通宝推：任逍遥97,
