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主题:也来说说邓小平的功过 -- 达雅

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家园 广东的情况特殊

60年代初,林彪主持制定的国防战略是“北顶南放”——如果外国入侵,东南沿海内侧500公里是放进来打。所以国家对广东、福建、浙江的投入很少。印象中79年时广东的鸡屁股跟甘肃差不多,倒着数。

由于国家投入少,大部分广东人根本没有享受过社会主义的优越性,相反,广州是中国最早的开埠口岸,资本主义在广东有顽强的生命力。

人往高处走,水往低处流,香港那么近,当然向香港走。60-70年代,湖南、广西都比广东好。当时很多湖南广西籍的部队转业干部首选都是回原籍。时过境迁,到80年代末开始这帮人才想方设法往广东调。

家园 逃港风可能真跟太祖有点关系

他老人家以身作则,畅游长江。所以每年广州都组织群众开展畅游珠江活动。

凡是能有资格畅游珠江的,从深圳湾游到香港基本不成问题。所以青年人练游泳的人热情高涨

家园 古巴在苏联在的时候日子还是很好过的吧 饥荒是之后的

这有篇文章

探讨古巴为什么没有立刻崩溃

2009-08-04 13:18

http://cid-36d976e82bb7123d.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!36D976E82BB7123D!404.entry

如果说有那一个相对成功的毛主义国家,我投古巴一票。古巴的成功表现在,第一是卡斯特罗长命百岁而比较廉洁;第二是没有父死子继,改成兄未死弟弟劳尔就继 了;第三是古巴尽管是南美发展最慢最穷的国家,但是人民相对比较满足;仍然真心要拯救水深火热中的美国人民;第四是最重要的,古巴从来没有真正出现饥荒, 反正笔者没有听说过。

美国遵守着肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫约定的“不武力犯古”的条约,其中的一个原因,大概也是对“和平状态下古巴斯大林政权自动自杀定理”的信心。但是古巴目前看来政权的稳固程度,看来不比东方某大国差那里去。

最后,古巴是否也遵守城乡比例上特权最大化定律的约束?古巴城市人口比例官方数字是75%,似乎与城乡支持比例的限度大大不合。即使增加了部分对斯大林国 家特有的城乡人口误差的校正,也仍然不可能得出合理的城乡28分布。古巴人口就算是按“城市行政区”计算,非农业人口,也只有50%左右。显然,不可能支 持一个类似朝鲜或者中国那样比例的工业化,而这种工业化,更不可能与美国的工业程度相抗衡,挽救美国人民于富裕腐朽的水深火热之中。原因在那里呢?

笔者认为,答案恰恰就在于古巴与美国差距太大,所以从来没有尝试通过工业化强化古巴的地位。古巴生存的秘密就在于,古巴从来没有真正尝试工业化!

古巴一直到独立后的第15年,才宣布第一个工业化五年计划,这种速度,在斯大林社会里,算是倒数第一。古巴这种消极,就象澳洲的考拉一样,以其消极,换取 了长寿。如果古巴采纳了激进的毛主义革命家切格瓦拉大规模工业化的主张,那么古巴可能会变第二个柬埔寨。卡斯特罗明智地在1965年宣布成为苏联的小弟 弟,对于当时开始能够出口石油,提供放下碗骂娘能力的苏联来说,养活古巴这样一个小弟弟,实在是易如反掌。失意的切格瓦拉改行到南美玻利维亚学习《毛上帝的游击战》,没想到《原来是山寨版的军事天才》,职业革命家让业余的玻利维亚民兵轻而易举抓逮活的毙了,毛主义理想追星族又损失了一位漂亮的帅哥。

苏东巨变对古巴造成的压力更甚至朝鲜。如果卡斯特罗也象金将军正日一样成为工业化搞原子弹的民族英雄,古巴饿死的人会比朝鲜多得多。卡斯特罗的精明就在 于,再次放弃了工业化,在1995年为止的经济改革,关闭了几乎全部国企!——继续搞社会主义的卡斯特罗——比搞了半拉子资本主义市场经济的邓江胡朱温还 狠!!奇怪的是,按毛主义特权卫士的口径,古巴的国企工人,怎么就没死光呢?

古巴的通化钢铁厂关掉了,古巴的国企工人非但没有把投资古巴残存国企(主要是糖类食品业)的外来资本家活活打死,而且欢蹦乱跳地下岗转行,响应卡斯特罗的 号召发展农业和旅游业,用比20年傻逼工业化快得多的速度,在短短五年内古巴实现了去工业化,农业和旅游业成为古巴的经济支柱。所谓古巴75% 的城市人口,不知是否应该把住在城市种田的算农民呢?

发展农业为古巴带来了人口生存的物质基础,发展旅游业服务于北美到古巴体验社会主义主人翁的古巴美女的服务,庞大的水深火热中的美国消费者,为古巴赚到的美元,是朝鲜剥削农业饿死几百万国民出口粮食加导弹所得的几十倍!

由于古巴没有搞国企为核心的工业化,从而没有形成一个围绕着国企剥削社会经济的特权阶层,特权阶层的权力范围相对比较小,从而令卡斯特罗为代表的古巴特权者的廉洁,相对于毛主义的装腔作势,显得货真价实得多。

古巴无疑是最成功最伟大的毛主义斯大林国家。理由无他,它活下来啦!所谓好死不如赖活着,卡斯特罗他容易嘛!?卡斯特罗是一位明智的独

还有记得有文章讲古巴在1993年(?)就接受美国的食品药品和别的人道援助。光这点就比毛不知道要强多少倍了。毛和中共是巴不得中国人死得快点死得多些。更不要讲人家搞的农业改革了。


本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
家园 71年中国能进联合国,美国至少没太多反对

怎么是反对呢?这根本就是人家一手操作的。否则光印度的反对都够你受的了。别说英国和法国了,人家能掌握的票可是基本上等于等于联合国了。

看看1971年中国是什么状况?周边国家除了朝鲜巴基斯坦有哪个跟中国友好的?不要讲屠杀中国人杀的正欢的印尼柬埔寨马来之类的了。光亚洲中国能拿到几票啊?还真以为靠阿尔巴尼亚和非洲那几个要援助的无赖能把中国大陆抬进联合国啊?

家园 妈妈的呀 古巴人革命前日子其实过的不错啊

Economic expansion

Although Batista was intent on lining his pockets, Cuba did flourish economically during his regime. Cuba's wages were among the world's highest;[74] according to the International Labor Organization, the average industrial salary in Cuba was the world's 8th highest in 1958, and the average agricultural wage was higher than in developed nations such as Denmark, West Germany, Belgium, or France.[74][75] Although a third of the population still lived in poverty, Cuba was one of the five most developed countries in Latin America.[76] Only 44% of the population was rural.[77]

Gross domestic product per capita was already about equal to that of Italy and significantly higher than that of countries such as Japan at the time, although Cuba's GDP was still only a sixth as large as that of the US.[74][78] According to the United Nations at the time, "one feature of the Cuban social structure [was] a large middle class".[78] Labour rights were also favourable - an eight-hour day had been established in 1933, long before other countries, and Cuban workers had a months's paid holiday, nine days' sick leave with pay, and six weeks' holiday before and after childbirth.[79]

Cuba also had Latin America's highest per capita consumption rates of meat, vegetables, cereals, automobiles, telephones and radios.[75][79][80]:186 Televisions per capita was the fifth highest in the world, and despite Cuba's small size, it had the world's 8th highest number of radio stations (160). According to the United Nations, Cubans read 58 daily newspapers during the late 1950s, with more newspapers being read only in three much more populous countries: Brazil, Argentina and Mexico.[81] People migrated to Havana at fast pace. Havana was the world's fourth most expensive city at the time,[69] and had more cinemas than New York.[76] The economy could not always keep up with demand, however - under Batista, Cuba had the highest telephone penetration in Latin America, but thousands of citizens were still waiting to be connected to the phone network, causing mass frustration.[77]

Moreover, Cuba's health service was remarkably developed. It had one of the highest numbers of doctors per capita - more than in the United Kingdom - and the third-lowest adult mortality rate in the world. According to the World Health Organization, the island had the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world - better than in France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal.[75][82][83]

Education spending in Cuba was, relatively, the highest in Latin America.[75] Cuba had the 4th highest literacy rate in the region at almost 80% according to the United Nations, higher than that of Spain.[81][82][83]

[edit] Stagnation and dissatisfaction

However, the United States was the frame of reference, not Latin America.[69][77] Cubans travelled to America, read American newspapers, listened to American radio, watched American television, and were attracted to American culture.[77] Middle class Cubans dreamed of the American economy and the gap between Cuba and the US increasingly frustrated many in the mid-1950s.[69] The middle class became increasingly dissatisfied with the administration, while labour unions supported Batista until the very end.[69][71]

There were large income disparities that were a result of the fact that Cuba's unionized workers enjoyed perhaps the most extensive privileges in Latin America.[84] Cuban labour unions had established limitations on mechanization and even bans on dismissals.[79] The labour unions' privileges were obtained in large measure "at the cost of the unemployed and the peasants".[84]

Cuba's labour regulations ultimately caused economic stagnation. Hugh Thomas asserts that "militant unions succeded in maintaining the position of unionized workers and, consequently, made it difficult for capital to improve efficiency."[85] Between 1933 and 1958, Cuba increased economic regulation enormously.[71] The regulation led to declining investment.[71] The World Bank also complained that the Batista administration raised the tax burden without assessing its impact. Unemployment was high; many university graduates could not find jobs.[71] After its earlier meteroic rise, the Cuban gross domestic product grew at only 1% annually on average between 1950 and 1958.[77]

我还以为革命后靠苏联养着古巴人日子好过多了呢。大错特错了啊。

家园 对古巴和美国关系,我曾经专门梳理过

基本上美古关系好的时候,古巴糖销往美国,换取工业品和其他物品,日子就会好过;美古关系坏了,美国制裁古巴经济,古巴的糖卖不出去,日子就差些。

美国一直想把古巴变成自己的一个州,从19世纪20年代就开始谋划,可惜,美帝自己内部一直有一帮反帝国主义者,总是在关键时候搅局,箝制帝国主义分子吞并古巴的行动。而且,最后连古巴这个附属国也失去了。当年卡斯特罗政变取得政权时候,曾去美国寻找美国的支持,美国看不上老卡,老卡受了美国白眼,一怒之下投靠了社会主义苏联大哥,这下美国算是彻底失去古巴了。

家园 美国可能是真要不了那么多地方 累赘啊

如果美国人想要的话,有的是地方想它的第五十一州的。不说菲律宾,太平洋上各种乱七八糟的各种岛国,中南美洲的很多地方都是实实在在在在想成为美国属地,都是美国人自己不要的。

The US recognized the Castro government on 7 January, only six days after Batista fled Cuba. President Eisenhower sent a new ambassador, Philip Bonsal, to replace Earl Smith, who had been close to Batista. The Eisenhower administration, in agreement with the US media and the Congress (Republicans and Democrats alike), did this with the assumption that “Cuba must remain in the US sphere of influence”. If Castro accepted these parameters, he would be allowed to stay in power. Otherwise he would be overthrown.[87]Among the opponents of Batista there were many who wanted to accommodate the US. However, Castro belonged to a faction who, to the astonishment of Eisenhower and many North Americans, was repulsed by US domination and paternalism. Castro did not forgive the US supply of arms to Batista during the revolution. On 5 June 1958, he wrote: “The Americans are going to pay dearly for what they are doing. When the war is over, I’ll start a much longer and bigger war of my own: the war I’m going to fight against them. That will be my true destiny.”[88] (The US had stopped supplies to Batista in March 1958, but left its Military Advisory Group in Cuba[89]). Thus, Castro had no intention to bow to the US. “Even though he did not have a clear blueprint of the Cuba he wanted to create, Castro dreamed of a sweeping revolution that would uproot his country’s oppressive socioeconomic structure and of a Cuba that would be free of the United States”.[90]

这个情形好像与中国很相似。

还有我原先讲的卡斯特罗没搞文革也是不对的。老卡清洗起来也是很狠的。一个现在一千多万人口的小国家光跑出来的就有120万人,还不算没跑成功喂鲨鱼的。

Fidel Castro quickly purged political opponents from the administration. Loyalty to Castro became the primary criterion for all appointments.[86] Groups such as labour unions were made illegal.[80][page needed]

By the end of 1960, all opposition newspaper had been closed down and all radio and television stations were in state control.[80]:189 Teachers and professors were purged.[80]:189 The Communist Party strengthened its one-party rule, with Castro as the supreme leader.[80]:189 Moderates were arrested.[80]:189 Fidel's brother Raul Castro became the commander of the army.[80]:189 In September 1960, the neighborhood watch networks known as committees for the defense of the revolution (CDR) were created.[80]:189

你讲的饥荒也是存在的,不过可能没有大规模饿死人。

Cubans had to resort to eating anything they could find. In the Havana zoo, the peacocks, the buffalo and even the rhea were reported to have disappeared.[124] Cuban domestic cats disappeared from streets to dinner tables.

家园 饥饿和大清洗是社会主义国家的特征嘛
家园 改革开放前外逃的人多还是以后外逃的多?

我看过不止一次报道,那些人不惜背负几万美元的债务,甚至冒着在船上闷死的危险,也要偷渡。不仅偷渡欧美日韩港台,甚至象前两年伊拉克那样的战乱国家也要跑去打黑工结果被绑了架。

家园 切,羊吃人,饥荒,断头台+革命杀全家,新兴资本主义

哪一样干得少,还得加上奴隶制和种族灭绝。

家园 矮油,绿色无烟工业?

“傻逼”式的工业化对比绿色无污染的“无烟工业”

?同意这种傻逼文章的傻逼观点真TM那啥。

家园 应该是美国把不住门了才对.

1950到1960是美国坚决反对, 看不行了, 改为中国返回联合国按重要议题办理, 要2/3多数通过才中.到70年赞成票已超过反对票.71年基辛格秘密访问中国, 美国驻联合国代表老布什拖延的办法是两个中国.

[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/LbNvzEHeXxI[/FLASH]

台灣演義 - 退出聯合國的真相 1/4(退出聯合國秘辛)

1971年10月25日,联合国大会第1976次会议以76票赞成、35票反对、17票弃权的压倒多数,通过了阿尔巴尼亚、阿尔及利亚等23个国家提出的要求“恢复中华人民共和国在联合国的一切合法权利,立即把蒋介石集团的代表从联合国一切机构中驱逐出去”的提案.

中国多年不懈的外交努力是主因, 尤其是发展和非洲新兴独立国家的友好关系显奇效.

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

当时的见闻

Announcer: The longest debate in the history of the UN was about to end.

Unknown Speaker: "…in favor 76, opposed 35, abstention 17. The Resolution adopted. The Government of People's Republic of China will be notified accordingly."

Announcer: With that vote, Communist China was admitted into the UN and Nationalist China expelled. There was cheers, smiles, laughter and applause, but none showed their pleasure more than the young Chief Delegate from Tanzania, who performed an African victory jig in the front row.

For the United States, the expulsion of Nationalist China was considered a defeat in the international arena. It was a defeat many didn't like, Senator Barry Goldwater for one.

Senator Barry Goldwater: "I suggested on the floor of the Senate today that we stop all funds for the United Nations. Now, what that'll do to the United Nations, I don't know. I have a hunch it would cause them to fold up, which would make me very happy at this particular point. I think if this happens, they can well move their headquarters to Peking or Moscow and get 'em out of this country."

一个参观者的回忆

It was 12.45 when a fresh batch of green tickets were handed out; we rushed to the elevator, were taken to the fourth floor, and ushered to seats in time to hear the tail end of Malaysia's warm welcome to the People's Republic of China on behalf of Thailand, Indonesia, the Philippines, Singapore and his own country. He was followed by Padma Bahadur Khatri of Nepal who said he could not remember an occasion for so much rejoicing. The new arrival had brought new vigour and hope to the Organisation.

家园 老毛说是黑人兄弟用轿子把我们抬进联合国的, 很形象,

1971年联合国大会第1976次会议以76票赞成、35票反对、17票弃权的压倒多数,通过了阿尔巴尼亚、阿尔及利亚等23个国家提出的要求“恢复中华人民共和国在联合国的一切合法权利,立即把蒋介石集团的代表从联合国一切机构中驱逐出去”的提案。

据准备去联合国人员回忆

中国组团出席联大是毛主席亲自决定的。毛主席获悉此消息后,十分高兴。他在中南海住处接见姬鹏飞、乔冠华和韩念龙等外交部负责人以及出席联大代表团主要成员时,回顾中外历史,纵论天下大事,谈了3小时之久。他接过周总理的汇报说,我们就派代表团去,并指着乔冠华说,“让乔老爷当团长”。毛主席接着拿起茶几上的情况表格说,这次英国、法国、荷兰、比利时、加拿大都造了美国的反,在联合国投我们的票。投赞成票的,亚洲国家19个,非洲国家26个。拉丁美洲居然有7个国家投我们的票,美国的“后院”起火,这可是一件大事。这次不高兴的人也有,“蒋委员长”就是头一个。美国国务院说要发表声明,还没有看到,不过是一篇“吊丧文”。毛主席对代表团的主要成员说,你们这次去,是去伸张正义,长世界人民的志气,灭超级大国的威风。他加强语气说,我们在联合国的方针是“团结大多数,孤立极少数”。23个提案国是我们的患难之交,要同他们讲团结。其他投票赞成我们的国家也要团结,对投弃权票的几个国家要正确对待。我们第一篇讲话要旗帜鲜明,高屋建瓴,势如破竹。毛主席这一讲话精神成为代表团多年来的工作指针。尽管已过去了30年,可回忆起来仍感到振奋和亲切。

网上查的: 赞成票中亚洲19,非洲26,拉美7,欧洲23(其中苏联有白俄罗斯,乌克兰,苏联3票)北美1票(加拿大). 非洲26国的重要作用不言而喻.

阿尔巴尼亚和阿尔及利亚为首联合提出2758号决议提案的23个会员国是:

阿尔巴尼亚人民共和国

阿尔及利亚民主人民共和国

缅甸联邦

锡兰(今斯里兰卡)

古巴共和国

几内亚共和国

赤道几内亚共和国

伊拉克共和国

马里共和国

毛里塔尼亚伊斯兰共和国

尼泊尔王国

巴基斯坦伊斯兰共和国

也门民主人民共和国

刚果人民共和国

罗马尼亚社会主义共和国

塞拉勒窝内共和国

索马里民主共和国

苏丹民主共和国

阿拉伯叙利亚共和国

坦桑尼亚联合共和国

阿拉伯也门共和国

南斯拉夫社会主义联邦共和国

赞比亚共和国

其他53个投票赞成2758提案的国家是:

阿富汗

奥地利共和国

比利时王国

不丹王国

博茨瓦纳共和国

保加利亚人民共和国

布隆迪共和国

白俄罗斯苏维埃社会主义共和国

喀麦隆联邦共和国

加拿大

智利共和国

捷克斯洛伐克社会主义共和国

丹麦王国

厄瓜多尔共和国

阿拉伯埃及共和国

埃塞俄比亚帝国

芬兰共和国

法兰西共和国

加纳共和国

圭亚那合作共和国

匈牙利人民共和国

冰岛共和国

印度共和国

伊朗

爱尔兰共和国

以色列国

意大利共和国

肯尼亚共和国

科威特国

老挝王国

阿拉伯利比亚共和国

马来西亚联邦

墨西哥合众国

蒙古人民共和国

摩洛哥王国

荷兰王国

尼日利亚联邦共和国

挪威王国

秘鲁共和国

波兰人民共和国

葡萄牙共和国

卢旺达共和国

塞内加尔共和国

新加坡共和国

瑞典王国

多哥共和国

特立尼达和多巴哥

突尼斯共和国

土耳其共和国

乌干达共和国

乌克兰苏维埃社会主义共和国

苏联社会主义共和国联盟

大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国

家园 得,你干脆一直追溯到猴子算了
家园 一针见血

这大概是最形象的描述了

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