主题：【原创】健身成果咋样，懒汉们，该行动了。 -- 关中农民
家园 问一句，赵立平的研究是严肃的，靠谱的吗？ 网上搜了一下关于他的信息，翻出来方舟子对他及他的研究成果的质疑，好像也没个定论，估计赵不是方舟子的主攻目标，好像质疑的声音影响也不大。
刚才和我媳妇通了个电话，她是搞细菌与微生物实验研究的，二医出身，所以想向她打听一下赵的情况，二医和交大的前世今生兄台应该了解吧？结果这位大姐对我在她的地盘乱打听很不满，并对这种捞过界的行为予以坚决打击：
假的！没听过！骗人的！你懂什么！
是不是学医的都是这么直率豪放，喜欢直不楞登的对待外行啊。。。。
直到我说人家的文章登上过《科学》2012年6月号她才安生下来，答应我去查赵教授的文章，并放话如果在《科学》2012年6月号上找不到他的文章，回家就要我好看。
于是，我的问题来了，兄台，赵立平的研究是严肃的，靠谱的吗？
因为这和我正在做的一个O2O项目产品有关，所以我真的很关注这个问题。
家园 怕你受老婆的惩罚，我粘贴了文章在这。 我们医学院出身的，觉得活人不过比死人多口气而已，所以很多时候直肠子。
呵呵，你可以告诉她你跟医药同行了解过这类研究。不是拍脑袋想当然。
Published Online June 6 2012
Science 8 June 2012:
Vol. 336 no. 6086 pp. 1248-1250
DOI: 10.1126/science.336.6086.1248
News
News
My Microbiome and Me
Mara Hvistendahl
Zhao Liping combines traditional Chinese medicine and studies of gut microbes to understand and fight obesity.
Introduction
Perspectives
ScienceIs It Time for a Metagenomic Basis of Therapeutics?
ScienceHonor Thy Gut Symbionts Redux
Science Translational MedicineThe Human Gut Microbiota and Undernutrition
Paired Reviews
ScienceThe Application of Ecological Theory Toward an Understanding of the Human Microbiome
Science Translational MedicineMicrobiota-Targeted Therapies: Taking Advantage of Ecology
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ScienceHost-Gut Microbiota Metabolic Interactions
Science Translational MedicineTherapeutic Modulation of Microbiota-Host Metabolic Interactions
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ScienceInteractions Between the Microbiota and the Immune System
Science Translational MedicineMicrobiota, Disease and Back Again to Health: A Metastable Journey
Full Index for this Special Section
SHANGHAI, CHINA—In some ways it's a familiar story. In 1987, Zhao Liping married Ji Liuying, a college classmate. Within 2 years, they had a daughter and Zhao finished his Ph.D. Under new pressure and eating richly—Ji is a good cook—the microbiologist put on weight. By 1990, when he started an environmental microbiology lab at Shanxi Academy of Agricultural Sciences in Taiyuan, China, Zhao had grown from 60 to 80 kilograms. Later, on a postdoctoral fellowship at Cornell University, he put on another 10 kilograms. By the time he returned to China in 1995, his waist measured a corpulent 110 centimeters and his health was poor.
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The science of shrinking.
Microbiologist Zhao Liping, shown here before and after a change in diet, thinks he lost 20 kilograms by regulating his gut microbiota.
CREDITS: COURTESY OF ZHAO LIPING (2)
But in 2004, he read a paper that eventually changed the shape of his career—and his body. Jeffrey I. Gordon, a microbiologist at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, Missouri, and colleagues showed a link between obesity and gut microbiota in mice (Science, 29 May 2009, p. 1136). Zhao was curious whether that link extended to himself and decided to find out. In 2006, he adopted a regimen involving Chinese yam and bitter melon—fermented prebiotic foods that are believed to change the growth of bacteria in the digestive system—and monitored not just his weight loss but also the microbes in his gut. When he combined these prebiotics with a diet based on whole grains, he lost 20 kilograms in 2 years. His blood pressure, heart rate, and cholesterol level came down. Faecalibacterium prausnitzii—a bacterium with anti-inflammatory properties—flourished, increasing from an undetectable percentage to 14.5% of his total gut bacteria. The changes persuaded him to focus on the microbiome's role in his transformation. He started with mice but has since expanded his research to humans.
Zhao—now a slim, soft-spoken 49-year-old with flat-top hair and a square jaw—has become an unlikely spokesperson for a burgeoning field. In 2010, he presented his weight-loss story at the Human Microbiome Project meeting in St. Louis, Missouri, at the invitation of George Weinstock of Washington University in St. Louis. Gordon's research had set off a flurry of new studies, but Weinstock says scientists had reached something of an impasse. The “field had been standardized to some extent by the early researchers following the same path,” Weinstock says, and Zhao's willingness to dive in and experiment on himself “brought a breath of fresh air.” Even more refreshing was that Zhao presented his findings in a “detached, agnostic, scientific way,” Weinstock adds. “He was not religious about it at all.”
Now associate director of Shanghai Jiao Tong University's Shanghai Center for Systems Biomedicine, Zhao oversees several clinical studies that look at the role of the microbiome in diabetes, obesity, and liver function. But his work remains grounded in his personal story—which friends say reflects a willingness to explore uncharted territory through raw trial and error. “As a scientist,” he says, “you should work on questions for which there is very little evidence but that you believe are important.”
Uncertainty about cause and effect is what plagues the field right now. It is difficult to prove, for example, that F. prausnitzii facilitated Zhao's slimming and didn't just show up once his gut was healthy. “The list of the diseases that the microbiome may play a role in is just growing and growing,” says Lita Proctor, director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health's Human Microbiome Project in Bethesda, Maryland. “But the problem is that we're only able to look at associations of the microbiome with disease and aren't yet able to conduct cause-and-effect studies. What we're witnessing is a very young field trying to figure out ‘Okay, what's the right way to approach [these] data?’”
For Zhao, the way involves transferring his weight-loss program to hundreds of human subjects and drawing on animal studies to decide what metabolic parameters to monitor in people. While his ultimate goal is to establish a molecular pathway connecting the microbiota to obesity, his e-mail signature reads: “EAT RIGHT, KEEP FIT, LIVE LONG, DIE QUICK.”
Faith in traditional medicine
Zhao grew up in a small farming town in Shanxi Province. Like most Chinese born on the eve of the Cultural Revolution, he and his two younger brothers had a simple upbringing. His father was a high school teacher and his mother worked in a textile factory. Both of his parents were firm believers in traditional remedies. Zhao remembers watching his father try to fight a hepatitis B infection by drinking a pungent, murky herbal concoction twice a day.
A good student, Zhao earned a Ph.D. in molecular plant pathology from Nanjing Agricultural University. When he returned to Shanxi to start his lab, he focused on using beneficial bacteria to rein in plant pathogens. One day, a veterinary scientist colleague asked for some strains of Bacillus, explaining that the bacteria helped control diarrhea in pigs and chickens. Zhao realized he was sitting on bacterial strains that might control infections in humans as well as plants.
Throughout the 1990s, Zhao dabbled in research on the pig microbiome, exploring the idea that bacterial strains might control infections in pigs, but couldn't get funding. Meanwhile, his family's health was falling apart. His plump father's cholesterol levels spiked, and the elder Zhao suffered two strokes. Zhao's two brothers had become obese as well. A few years later, Gordon's paper provided what Zhao calls “the first evidence that gut microbiota can actually regulate host genes.” Thus it seemed plausible that this was a way the microbiome could affect health. He began using himself as a guinea pig to try to pin down what microbes might be involved in weight gain. Early microbiome research had raised more questions than it answered, however, and figuring out which of the hundreds of microbial species living in the average human gut might be involved was tricky.
He dug into Western literature on weight loss, but introducing a low-calorie diet and strenuous exercise didn't make sense to him. “Nutritionally, your body is under stress,” he says. “Then you add to that physical stress. Maybe you can lose weight, but you might also damage your health.” Zhao thought of his father's herbal concoctions and turned instead to the traditional medicine literature for inspiration.
Obesity and diabetes plagued members of China's imperial court thousands of years ago, and the diagnoses of early doctors preserved in ancient materia medica resonated with Zhao. Traditional doctors “don't have any idea about gut microbiot
家园 就我的经验来看，研究是靠谱的。而且我认为这是一个研究 热点，过几年会有很多成果出现。赵立平的结果不是发表在Science,是对他的采访发在那儿。小心你老婆找不着拾掇你。上海原来两所医学院的斗争还是激烈的，当然竞争也有好处。我在北京，好像三所医学院校并没有太多争斗，不过我那时是学生，就算上层有斗争，我也不会知道，扯远了。
有人说他们的统计有问题，文章中的图怎么怎么。肘子又是没有大眼光，盯得都是小问题。其实肠道菌群的测定都是通过检查粪便。可是这种检查有时会有问题，因为粪便里的菌群会随着饮食的变化，饮水的多少产生变化。所以用粪便菌群代表肠道菌群会有一定问题，至少不会太准，但大趋势不会错。所以他们的数据统计学差异可能没那么好。只有多次取粪便样，多次培养然后取均值，可能会更好，这在临床上又不好操作。谁没事呆在医院不停便便让你多次采样。
上海另外一个研究提到小波碱的作用，而北京的研究证明黄连的同类效应，不同的临床研究得出相似的结果，我认为可信。中药消渴丸也是苦寒类药物，小波碱的含量较高。苦瓜也有很高的小波碱，所以赵立平推荐他。
咱们的中药汤字，可能很多就是通过调节肠道菌群来起效。这也 给中药研究开辟了一个新思路。
家园 领导昨晚单位值班没回家，所以今天我还能全须全尾的来上班 赵的文章上《科学》是我网上搜出来的信息，看来百度还是不靠谱啊，领导虽然没回家，但来电指示：交大有这个人，但他的研究有争议，你要谨慎对待直到吗？听口气很明显有成见，搞得我莫名其妙，二医和交大合并有段时间了，但他们自己内部还是分的很清你是交大我是二医，莫非是因为赵教授供职的生物科学研究院是交大体系，不是二医的，但其研究领域却涉及医疗领域，动了二医的禁脔，导致领导本能的抵触？算我胡思乱想啊，等人家哪天开心了再小心贴意的问一下下吧。
这个说话直不楞登应该算是学医的标准交流模式了，是不是该算职业病啊呵呵。
家园 赵是农学院毕业的，医学院的觉得他们都是兽医， 那能研究人呢？呵呵，人啊兽啊的，基因大多都类似，我们跟猪的基因相似形更大。有争议很正常，作医学的觉得赵的研究太粗放。其实，医学界是被西方的这些所谓的细胞信号传导误导了。好像你不做这类的研究，就不高大上。人体是一个综合体系，肠道 是我们的第一道屏障。肠子里的同盟军对我们的胜利很关键。中医药通过调节这个平衡影响我们的免疫系统，从而治疗疾病。这是一个多么好的方向啊。可是这样成天做细胞信号传导之类研究的人上不了手，有异议在所难免。
大家应该开放心胸，欢迎新的研究理念和方向。肠道菌群的测试并不难，如果能以后引入常规体检，可能对疾病的早期预测有很重要的意义。现在都是生病了才测试，有些晚。如果以后每年测试，然后说你什么样的菌群太高，什么太低，应该多吃什么去调理，这多好。中医还可以研究出什么新的成药，就跟六味地黄丸一样。这种菌群铺图的人吃这个，那种菌群铺的吃那个。
家园 花！小波碱是否小檗碱？ 家园 恩，你是 对的，我打字懒得找。
家园 这就是常说的无肉不欢型。其实健康最重要，我是实在不敢胖， 因为遗传原因，只要胖了肯定出问题。但是很多人胖了没什么问题，所以完全可以做一个健康的胖子嘛。只要不过度胖，应该没啥问题。
我们小时候在农村很少吃肉，一年吃肉的时候两个手都能数过来，所以我对肉好像没有什么特别的爱好。有也行，没有也没啥。反倒对水果要求高点。我家就种西瓜和苹果，结果我还是吃起来没完。希望我这个习惯能改变我们家命运遗传，让我相对长寿一点。呵呵，老婆还指望我走在她后面呢，她们家可是都长寿。
家园 长叹一声 上次出差，连续应酬喝酒，回来又胖了一圈，忙起来，跑得少了，一个月了，还没把肚腩减下去。。。。
家园 宝花，羡慕 上周末体检结果出来了，血糖6.39，超出正常范围。
回想当年高中三年被低血糖折磨的很惨，参加运动会5000米比赛，站在起跑线上等发令枪，身后当裁判的体育老师拎着一瓶糖水跑过来：“赶紧喝了！这么大场面你要是晕倒了，给我找事呢。”没想到这辈子也会有高血糖的这一天。这20年都特么发生了什么？！
本周开始锻炼。