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主题:冷眼看占中 -- 种植园土

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      • 家园 多家媒体指黎开恒指空单

        ,然后动用媒体资源煽动占中,获益超过10亿。

        香港证券和金融交易相关法律还是很严格的。如能证实,按香港法律,内幕交易,操控市场,本身足以定刑事罪,更可以没收全部非法所得。

        如果黎智英的事发生在美国,从宪法到联邦法到州法,他触犯的法律不会少于50种,基本上不会让他从监狱活着出来(美国的叛国罪和类似罪名可不只一种,而是一堆)。如存在内幕交易、操控市场,所有由此期货受损失的人都可以告他,直至把他的家产赔干。

        • 家园 我对金融证券不大熟悉

          但这里有篇质疑文章,说得似乎有些道理。

          不管怎么说,论据什么的总要落在实处,兼听则明吧。

          香港传媒大亨黎智英“做空港股说”缺乏常识,有五大谬误

          http://www.centrechina.com/news/16353.html

          • 家园 做空肯定是可以的

            但获利数额未必有那么大,尤其所谓三大行的2000张,明显不会是全数,而只会是已知的数量,更不能据此认为25号才开始布空——毕竟除开法律风险,这种属于是白捡的钱。突然提前行动也的确有蹊跷,香港这个地方要悄悄出手实在简单。如果我是有倾向性的报道,完全可以把同样的材料加工成之前20余日港股在外围和内地股市一片向好的情况下节节下落,令人怀疑是有参与占中的人士暗中布置下注的结果。

            这篇澄清文章,也太向着黎智英了。

            • 家园 反驳文章我也看到了

              比如这篇:

              http://www.saiwon.com/?url=lianghaiming.baijia.baidu.com%2Farticle%2F31370#

              我当时把那篇澄清文章转过来,只是想看看,从专业角度如何去分析。

              谢谢你的回帖。

              不过,这条新闻的来源似乎还有点问题。但这一点各方都自动略过,挺有意思。

        • 家园 有买就有卖

          黎这么干,得罪的人已经不少了,政治上的事情太大,仅仅商业规则已经被他玩坏了,被他坑想收拾他的不会在少数。这个人很怪,作事情不太考虑后果,胆子不小,眼光很一般,做大事同时还要贪私利,结果不会好。

        • 家园 个人怎么可能触犯美国宪法……
          • 家园 解释一下宪法第三条第3款

            Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

            The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

            按美国宪法规定,美国人对美国的战争行为(比如叛乱),投靠美国敌人,或者资助、便利敌人,只要有两个人证或者自己承认,就有可能定罪。叛国罪一般处死刑,但实际执行中经常被赦免为终生监禁(最低刑罚为5年监禁)。

            按英国普通法,定了叛国罪之后,绑着架子上用马匹从地面上拖到刑场(drawing),然后绞到接近死亡(hanging),然后切鸡鸡(emasculated),开膛破腹,挖出内脏(disemboweled),斩首(beheaded),最后裂成4块(quartered)。全部财产充公(forfeiture),全部转出去的财产产权无效,子孙剥夺从别人那里获得继承权(corruption of blood)。

            美国宪法体现了极大怜悯心。仅仅判处普通的死刑或徒刑,而不是活生生地折磨至死。仅仅没收叛国者活着时拥有的财产或处以罚金,不再剥夺子孙从别处继承财产的权利。

            民主的叛国好玩吗?

            Misprision of treason(对叛国行为知情不报)

            Rebellion or insurrection(参与暴乱、暴动)

            Seditious conspiracy(阴谋叛乱)

            Advocating overthrow of Government(鼓吹推翻政府)

            Registration of certain organizations(注册叛乱组织)

            Activities affecting armed forces generally (和平时期影响军队的行为)

            Activities affecting armed forces during war(战争时期行为)

            Recruiting for service against United States(招募叛乱组织成员)

            Enlistment to serve against United States(报名参与叛乱组织)

            ........

            多着呢。

            • 家园 你没看懂

              按美国宪法规定,美国人对美国的战争行为(比如叛乱),投靠美国敌人,或者资助、便利敌人,只要有两个人证或者自己承认,就有可能定罪。叛国罪一般处死刑,但实际执行中经常被赦免为终生监禁(最低刑罚为5年监禁)。

              按英国普通法,定了叛国罪之后,绑着架子上用马匹从地面上拖到刑场(drawing),然后绞到接近死亡(hanging),然后切鸡鸡(emasculated),开膛破腹,挖出内脏(disemboweled),斩首(beheaded),最后裂成4块(quartered)。全部财产充公(forfeiture),全部转出去的财产产权无效,子孙剥夺从别人那里获得继承权(corruption of blood)。

              美国宪法体现了极大怜悯心。仅仅判处普通的死刑或徒刑,而不是活生生地折磨至死。仅仅没收叛国者活着时拥有的财产或处以罚金,不再剥夺子孙从别处继承财产的权利。

              美国宪法第三条第3款赋予了国会立法惩办叛国罪的权力,但限定了叛国罪的定罪标准和程序,并限定了相应惩罚的许可范围。

            • 家园 不然,个人是不会触犯美国宪法的。

              因为美国宪法无论是理论还是实践中都是用来限制政府权力的,一介个人,如果不代表政府,那么就不存在国家行为(所谓的State Action),也就不可能触犯宪法。

              这里谈到叛国罪的条款只是定义了叛国罪和授权国会惩罚。但如果某人真犯了叛国罪,法官只会判决他触犯了联邦法律(Federal Statute),而并不是宪法。

              总之,我不知道有一个案例是有个人被判违宪的(Violation of Constitution)。

              当然这只是一个技术性问题,但您原来的说法不够严谨。

              • 家园 美国宪法包括授权和限权两部分

                美国宪法无论是理论还是实践中都是用来限制政府权力的

                没有美国宪法赋予的权力,就没有美国联邦政府。

              • 家园 其它法律能定罪就不会麻烦宪法

                但不是说宪法不能拿来定罪,虽然没有无争议的案例表明如此。一个比较接近的案例是:

                举例:1862年,一个南方居民撕毁了一面美国星条旗,Bulter将军就以叛国罪吊死了他,具体指控是"high crimes and misdemeanors against the laws of the United States, and the peace and dignity thereof and the Law Martial." 公告如下:

                “William B. Mumford, a citizen of New Orleans, having been convicted before a military commission of treason and an overt act thereof, tearing down the United States flag from a public building of the United States, after said flag was placed there by Commodore Farragut, of the United States navy: It is ordered that he be executed according to sentence of said military commission on Saturday, June 7, inst., between the hours of 8 a.m. and 12 a.m. under the directions of the provost-marshal of the District of New Orleans, and for so doing this shall be his sufficient warrant.”

                注意:High crimes and misdemeanors 来自宪法第2条第4款:"The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."

                而公告中的 "overt act"也是来自于宪法。

                当然,这是军事法庭的决定,而且所指控违法“the laws of the United States”包含但不限于美国宪法。然而,这些语言High crimes and misdemeanors,overt act都是来自于宪法的。

                • 家园 这个反例太牵强了。

                  High crimes and misdemeanors 是针对公职人员不当行为的专用术语,比如伪证,贿赂什么的,可以成为弹劾的依据。您引用的第二条的部分也证明了这一点。这里显然是军事法庭那些老粗们的误用。

                  而且“the laws of the United States”一般是不包括美国宪法而是特指联邦法律的,最直接的证据就是您自己之前引用那款紧挨的,第三条第二款:

                  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made...

                  这里Constitution和the laws of the United States明显是并列而立。

                  最重要的一点,这个案子与后来的最高法院判例冲突(Texas vs. Johnson (1989), 以及 U.S. v. Eichman (1990)),可以说已经被推翻。目前焚烧国旗恰恰是受宪法第一修正案保护而不是相反,正好证明了宪法是保护个人权利而不是用来惩罚个人的。

                  • 家园 这个案件不算判例。

                    毕竟是军事法庭干的事。只是拿它说明宪法的作用和影响。即便今天,联邦法律中叛国罪仍需要证明"overt act"这个要素--这些法律是根据宪法制定的。

                    • 家园 凭着我看美剧的理解

                      苍月枫比你靠谱,呵呵,玩笑下。

                      • 家园 美剧不靠谱,少看为好

                        苍月枫的观点是“个人行为不可能违反美国宪法”。这个观点,学术上叫做State Action Doctrine,也就是宪法只针对公权力行为救济,不针对私人行为,无论私人行为多么恶劣、严重。在99.99%的情况下,这个观点是对的,但至少有一个例外--即美国宪法第十三修正案,即废除奴隶制部分,私人是可以触犯的。而且这个例外是美国宪法学者的共识。具体论文很多。下面就是一个。

                        The Thirteenth Amendment 'Exception' to the State Action Doctrine: An Originalist Reappraisal

                        Ryan D. Walters

                        Independent

                        March 19, 2013

                        George Mason University Civil Rights Law Journal (CRLJ), Vol. 23, No. 3, 2013

                        Abstract:

                        In 1865, the Thirteenth Amendment banned slavery in the United States. There is an overwhelming consensus that the Thirteenth Amendment represents an exception to the state action doctrine – the general rule that the U.S. Constitution does not apply to private actors. There has never been an analysis of this assertion using reasonable observer originalism. As a result, the consensus view on the Thirteenth Amendment threatens to undermine a key feature of the Constitution – that it provides rules of conduct solely for governmental actors.

                        This Article uses reasonable observer originalism to examine the text and context of the Thirteenth Amendment. This is the first analysis that finds that Section One of the Thirteenth Amendment is not the aberration that most have claimed; it is consistent with the state action doctrine and only applies to governmental actors. However, Section Two allows Congress to act on private individuals when a state has refused to enforce its generally applicable laws protecting bodily integrity and freedom from restraint. Both aspects of this analysis demonstrate how the case law that has arisen from the Thirteenth Amendment is in harmony with the revised view set forth in this Article, and that the constitutional ban of slavery is properly understood as an anti-caste provision prohibiting discriminatory governmental exemptions from laws protecting persons from physical force.

                        Part I of this Article describes the consensus view that the Thirteenth Amendment is an exception to the generally accepted maxim that the U.S. Constitution applies solely to governmental actors. Examining constitutional context and using the techniques of intratextualism, Part II explains the flaws in the reasoning advanced in support of the consensus view. Part III describes how the original meaning of the term “slavery” denoted a legal institution created and maintained by state action. Similarly, Part IV describes how the original meaning of “involuntary servitude” is consistent with a state-centered view of the institution. Part V analyzes how the relationship between the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment reinforces the plausibility of the state-action interpretation of the Thirteenth Amendment. Part VI then describes how Section Two of the Thirteenth Amendment permits Congress to reach private conduct, even though Section One only directly reaches state conduct, and how this interpretation makes sense of the existing case law regarding the scope of the Thirteenth Amendment.

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