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主题：【原创】关于央视报道中国购买苏-35和拉达级潜艇 -- 种植园土
家园 【原创】关于央视报道中国购买苏-35和拉达级潜艇 据央视《今日关注》栏目报道，习近平访俄前，中俄两国刚刚签署了两份重大军售框架协议，中俄合作建造4艘先进的“拉达级”AIP潜艇出售给中国，中国向俄罗斯采购24架苏-35战机，这是时隔近10年后中国首次向俄罗斯采购重大军事技术装备。
但根据多家媒体（包括塔斯社、俄罗斯之声中文版、美国军方背景的防务新闻）消息，貌似央视上述说法夸张了点。通俗地讲，就是央视通过权威的大嘴巴把网上已有的传言复述了一遍，就变成了各大媒体争相转载的新闻。现在这些消息在印度也成头条了。
根据塔斯社消息，习总访问俄罗斯期间并未谈军购事务。
追溯网上流言的来源，购买su-35消息貌似源于去年上半年一些俄罗斯小报。而购买拉达级的传言则似乎是去年12月20号一个发行量13万的俄罗斯小报。
子乌虚有。即便有谈判，离达成协议还有过程。大家洗洗睡吧。
本人的帖子，该删的删了。
通宝推：浣花岛主,TopGun,发了胖的罗密欧,崇山彩云,家园 我觉得没什么了不起的 24架飞机，象征意义多过实际意义，况且怎么说人家还是技术上有不少独到之处。
家园 买苏35说明太行还是不太行，军方也不抱幻想了 如果太行真的搞定了，发动机从此不用靠毛子货，买苏35就真的没必要了。
买苏35就是向毛子航空工业输血，换取发动机技术和产品。
家园 洗洗睡吧，能有经国登辉上场就是了 这个家内有政治经济文化的痼疾，又有民族宗教方面的煽风点火，各种思潮都乘机借尸还魂，乌合民众一盘散沙，外有大敌环视、步步遏制、分裂，谁当家都不易。
家园 说得有道理！
家园 CCAV的报道靠不靠谱啊，查了塔斯社23-24日报道 未提任何军售消息，只有一个报道称，俄军总参谋长参加习近平会见俄国防部长时说，说俄军已经准备好了未来10-15年的技术升级，包括su-35,S400以及北方之神核潜艇，现在生产线已经处于满负荷运转状态。
The chief of Russia’s General Staff took part in Saturday’s meeting between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Chinese President Xi Jinping.
“Today we’ve laid the groundwork for such arms supplies as the S-400 air defence systems, the Borei submarine and the Su-35 fighters for 10-15 years from now. The plants, which produce this hardware, are engaged with orders by 100 percent,” Gerasimov said.
DEFENSE NEWS发了一则消息如下：
Russia: No Deal on Sale of Fighters, Subs to China
TAIPEI — Russia is denying Chinese media claims that Moscow and Beijing have signed agreements to sell Russian-made arms and military technology to China, including 24 Su-35 multirole fighter jets and four Amur-class diesel submarines.
During a recent visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping to Moscow from Friday to Sunday, no discussions took place regarding “military-technical cooperation” issues, the ITAR-TASS news agency reported Monday. This was in response to an earlier report by China’s CCTV on the same day.
“The Kremlin is officially denying even discussing arms trade during Xi’s visit,” said Vasiliy Kashin, a China military specialist at the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST). “In Russia-China relations, specific arms trade contracts are almost never discussed by the top leaders, just the general approaches.”
Another defense industry source in Russia said there are strong reservations about going forward on the memorandum of understanding signed in December to explore the sale of the twin-engine Su-35s and Amur submarines to China.
China intentionally violated intellectual property right (IPR) agreements when it copied and manufactured Russia’s Su-27 fighter as the J-11B, according to Russia.
In 1995, China secured a production deal with Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed the J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. In 2006, Russia canceled the deal after 95 aircraft when it discovered China had reverse-engineered the fighter and was secretly manufacturing an indigenous copy, the J-11B, with Chinese-made avionics and engines.
There are strong suspicions China will procure the technological know-how of the Su-35 and Amur and simply produce an indigenous version.
But not all agree. Gary Li, a senior analyst at London-based IHS Fairplay, said China’s research and development have moved forward.
“It no longer will seek to directly reverse engineer everything it buys, but maybe adopt parts of the platform for other projects [and] integrate into domestic designs,” he said.
There also are concerns China wants access to the Su-35’s Saturn AL-117S engine, which is outfitted on the T-50, a prototype of Russia’s fifth-generation Sukhoi PAK FA stealth fighter.
However, Kashin said the risks of selling the Russian engine to China are negligible.
“An engine cannot be copied by obtaining a sample,” he said.
Li said he could envision Chinese aerospace engineers studying the aircraft’s engine and thrust-vectoring for future inclusion, as well as the Amur sub’s air-independent propulsion, but it will still be more than a decade before China will stop having to order engines to replace “worn-out ones,” as it has been doing with the J-11 and J-10 fighters.
“It always takes a few years before they can make a domestic alternative,” Li said.
Kashin cautions that a Chinese attempt to copy the Su-35, as they did with the Su-27, would be more difficult, “because this time, our Ukrainian ‘brothers’ cannot help them by selling the Chinese all the technology they lacked for a handful of dollars. I think the Amur situation will be generally the same.”
Ukraine has been accused of selling China former Soviet defense technologies, but it has no access to information regarding newer systems, such as the Su-35 and Amur.
“The Amur ultimately isn’t a strategic submarine, and as Russia’s interests in the Far East are not yet that ambitious, they can afford to sell them to China,” Li said. “How better to keep the U.S. pivot off their backs?”
家园 央视业务不熟,被俄罗斯之声纠正 http://chinese.ruvr.ru/2013_03_25/108948940/
央视在习近平访俄前夕有关中俄签署重大军售合同的报道内容都是早为人们熟知的事实。然而由于在报道中的用词不够准确以及许多新闻社以讹传讹，结果制造出国际笑话。俄罗斯战略与技术分析中心专家瓦西里·卡申在接受俄罗斯之声记者采访时对此发表了自己的看法。
央视报道称，就在习近平访问俄罗斯前夕中俄两国签署了两份重大军售框架协议，中俄合作建造4艘先进的“阿穆尔”级潜艇出售给中国。签署类似协议（谅解备忘录）的事实本身早在去年6月俄罗斯媒体就报道过。当时许多俄罗斯报纸还公布了央视报道中出现的有关此项交易的一些细节。
这里一个明显的错误就在于把有关此项军售的谈判同最高级别的访问联系起来。在俄中关系的实践中两国领导人从不讨论军事技术合作的具体项目。领导人只把握两国合作的大方向。
据俄罗斯军方消息人士向塔斯社透露，在俄罗斯总统和中国国家主席的会晤中根本就没有触及军事技术合作议题。
这也是很自然的。备忘录签署后合同的拟定工作将由俄中两国相应的公司以及国防部和其他有关部门来完成。他们将就价格、供应条件、对产品的具体要求、知识产权保护以及售后服务等等进行磋商。这种工作有可能持续若干年。这些谈判技术性很强，只能由高级专家来进行。两国领导人不会介入。
还在1992年就已成立的俄中政府间军事技术合作联合委员会负责解决关键问题。俄中两国国防部部长分别为委员会俄中方主席，轮换在莫斯科和北京召开每年的年会（通常在11月）。正是在委员会会议期间通常可以传来俄中两国军事技术领域合作方面的最新消息。
实际上有关苏－３５和“阿穆尔-1650”潜艇的谈判还处于早期谈判阶段，还没有把握肯定这些谈判能在最近一次委员会会议上结束，俄罗斯军事问题专家瓦西里·卡申认为。
这些合同其实并非像央视所报道的那样是最近１０年中俄签订的最大军售订单。俄罗斯对中国武器出口从未完全中断过。例如，仅在２０１０年俄罗斯就向中国交付了１５个营的Ｓ－３００ＰＭＵ防空导弹系统。目前俄罗斯国防出口公司正在履行向中国提供１０架伊尔－７６运输机的合同。
虽然在习近平访俄期间没有触及任何具体的军售项目，但是习近平上任后首访俄罗斯这一事实本身就已表明两国在国防与安全领域的相互信任在增长。例如，习近平成为首位参观俄罗斯最高指挥部的外国领导人。在良好的政治气候条件下，俄中两国合作完全能够迈上一个新台阶。
家园 Defense News 背景 其母公司出版美国陆军时报Army Times (founded 1940),海军时报Navy Times (founded 1951), 空军时报Air Force Times (founded 1947), and 海军陆战队时报 Marine Corps Times.
另外还出版以下学术刊物：Armed Forces Journal, Training & Simulation Journal and C4ISR Journal.
应该说是美国军方背景的媒体。
家园 习访俄期间俄罗斯塔斯社报道汇总 MOSCOW – Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday that 2014-2015 would be a year of youth exchanges between Russia and China. The initiative was proposed by visiting Chinese President Xi Jiping.
“We are going to support this initiative. We will do everything to enable our young people to communicate freely, discuss joint projects and plan joint initiatives for historical perspective,” Putin said after talks with his Chinese counterpart.
MOSCOW – Russia and China will be able to bring reciprocal trade up to 100 billion dollars by 2015, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday after talks with Chinese President Xi Jiping.
Reciprocal trade, Putin said, grew by 5.1% last year to reach almost 90 billion dollars. The Russian president believes the task of bringing it to 100 billion dollars by 2015 is quite realistic.
MOSCOW – Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping opened Chinese Tourism Year in Russia.
Speaking at the ceremony at the Grand Kremlin Palace Putin said that Russian Tourism Year in China increased the number of Chinese tourists by nearly 50 percent.
MOSCOW – Chinese President Xi Jinping has become the first leader of a foreign country to visit the Operational Control Centre of the Russian Armed Forces.
The Chinese president visited the Centre on Saturday within his meeting with Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.
Chief of Russia’s General Staff Valery Gerasimov said: “Esteemed Mr. Xi Jinping, President of the People’s Republic of China, you are the first leader of a foreign state whom the doors of the Russian Armed Forces Operational Control Centre are opened.”
MOSCOW – China and Russia will continue to strengthen and develop their military, political and strategic relations, Chinese President Xi Jinping said at a meeting with Russian Defence Ministry Sergei Shoigu on Saturday, March 23.
“My visit to the Russian Defence Ministry is intended to indicate that military, political and strategic relations between the two countries will strengthen as will cooperation between the Armed Forces of Russia and China,” Xi said.
MOSCOW – Inter-parliamentary and inter-regional cooperation between Russia and China will develop dynamically, Federation Council spokesperson Valentina Matviyenko said.
Opening the talks with Chinese President Xi Jinping on Saturday, Matviyenko said his visit to Russia “is the major political event”. “Your visit was extremely successful,” the Federation Council chairperson noted.
She believes, “Russian and Chinese political scientists do everything possible to preserve friendship between our countries and peoples and continue comprehensive strategic partnership in all fields”.
MOSCOW – The positions of Russia and China on missile defence coincide to a large extent, Deputy Defence Minister Anatoly Antonov said on Saturday.
Commenting on the results of the talks between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Chinese President Xi Jinping, the Russian deputy defence minister said, “The Russian defence minister and the Chinese president noted the commonness of views on international security. Both parties voiced common concerns about missile defence and agreed to continue talks on this problem.”
Antonov said during the meeting, Shoigu and Xi Jinping “stressed the need to develop military and military-technical cooperation”. “I’d like to note that we maintain friendship with China to strengthen regional cooperation and ensure stability and global security,” he stressed.
MOSCOW – The fact that Russia is chosen for the first state visit by the new Chinese president indicates that Russia is a priority in China's foreign policy, State Duma Speaker Sergei Naryshkin said during the meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping on Saturday.
It is the first foreign visit by the new head of China. It is indicative of what priority importance is attached to relationship with Russia. For Russia, developing cooperation with the People's Republic of China is also a priority, he said.
MOSCOW – Firm relations between Russia and China are an important and reliable guarantee for the international balance and peace, Chinese President Xi Jinping said when speaking at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations (MGIMO) on Saturday.
He said it was great pleasure for him to visit MGIMO. The university with its high scientific achievements and noted teachers is known all over the world. Many prominent people came out from the university, he added.
GORKI – Xi Jinping said during the meeting with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev that his first visit to Russia after he took office as president already achieved the goals, and the results were far beyond the expectations.
The Russian premier at the beginning of the meeting congratulated Xi on the election to the top post. "I would like to sincerely congratulate You on the election to the post of Chinese president, wish You great successes in the responsible work and express the hope that Your first visit to the Russian Federation will proceed on the highest level and will be marked with very good achievements, which already happens," Medvedev said.
MOSCOW – Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev extended the agreement with the United States on cooperation in the field of space exploration for peaceful purposes.
The agreement entered into force on June 17, 1992 and was extended three times in 1997, 2002 and 2007. “The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia has received the American on the extension of the Agreement until 2020 subject to appropriate amendment,” the prime minister said.
“The agreement is one of the main legal instruments to ensure conditions for Russian-American cooperation in the field of space exploration and use for peaceful purposes. Its extension serves the interests of Russia and will facilitate effective implementation of its space projects, including those aimed at exploring Moon and Mars, and exchange of data received with the help of Russian and American spacecraft,” the government press service said.
MOSCOW – Russia and China should always remain good neighbors, good friends and reliable partners, Chinese President Xi Jinping said on Saturday when he addressed students at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations (MGIMO).
Firm relations between Russia and China are an important and reliable guarantee for the international balance and peace, the Chinese president noted.
MOSCOW – Russia’s multi-national computer security company Kaspersky Laboratory will be actively cooperating with the specialized Interpol division – INTERPOL Global complex for Innovation - in the struggle against cyber threats at the world level, the company’s press-service said in a press-release on Friday.
The agreement was achieved in the course of negotiations among Kaspersky Laboratory CEO Yevgeny Kaspersky, Interpol Secretary-General Ronald Noble and IGCI Executive Director Noboru Nakatani at the Kaspersky Laboratory head office in Moscow.
The Kaspersky Laboratory will provide extensive consultancy services to the IGCI in investigating cyber crimes and also delegate its specialists to the IGCI office in Singapore, due to open in 2014. Also, the company will back Interpol in its initiatives to expand the expertise of law enforcement agencies in countries around the world in fighting cyber threats and cyber criminals.
MURMANSK – The northern section of the Kola federal highway between Murmansk and the Russian-Norwegian border is still closed.
Traffic halted on the road on Friday morning due to bad weather conditions has not resumed yet. The snowstorm is continuing in the mountainous area. Road services cannot cope with the snow. Snowdrifts cover the road again shortly after it is cleared. Corridors are dug in the snow at some places.
NICOSIA – Cypriot President Nikos Anastasiades is ready to visit Russia as it possible, government spokesman Christos Stylianides said on Saturday.
Stylianides denied local mass media reports saying the Cypriot president would give up plans to visit Russia at the invitation of the country’s leadership.
MOSCOW – Russia’s Armed Forces laid the groundwork for up-to-date arms supplies for 10-15 years from now, chief of Russia’s General Staff Valery Gerasimov said.
The chief of Russia’s General Staff took part in Saturday’s meeting between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Chinese President Xi Jinping.
“Today we’ve laid the groundwork for such arms supplies as the S-400 air defence systems, the Borei submarine and the Su-35 fighters for 10-15 years from now. The plants, which produce this hardware, are engaged with orders by 100 percent,” Gerasimov said.
MOSCOW – Chinese President Xi Jinping’s first foreign visit and his meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin coincided in time with Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev’s proposal to create an offshore zone in the Russian Far East. Moscow has clearly seen new opportunities associated with the rapid development of the Asia-Pacific Region. But it will not be easy for Russia to become a full participant in the rapid growth in that part of the world or even benefit from it.
MOSCOW – Russia’s Security Council, which gathered in the president’s residence of Zavidovo on Saturday, touched on the economic situation in the eurozone with the focus on the Cypriot crisis and the outcome of the Russian-Chinese talks of March 22, presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.
The Security Council also riveted attention to the social and economic in Russia, as well as to international issues, Peskov said.
家园 何必如此痛心疾首 总之，对俄军购矮化了中国，伤了军迷的信心中国军工近年来取得的进步有目共睹，不必妄自菲薄。
买了Su35并不意味着J11就要停产，买了“拉达”武船也不会关门。太行、秦岭、昆仑山，都在日积月累地长海拔，区区24架飞机就能把它们都撞毁了？
但是，短短十几年的时间就想全面超俄赶美，也是盲目乐观，毕竟人家也是花了几十年工夫的。
我们现在只能说是初步解决了有没有的问题，正在向好不好前进。过程中，再像以前一样虚心借鉴他人的长处，有何不可？
再说了，当年咱剪了Su27的合同，仿了Su33的设计，现在多少给一点补偿，也是理所应当。
归根到底，现在战略上需要和鹅毛抱团取暖，咱还不缺钱，那么大方一点有何不可？
家园 至于么，兔子多买了几个玩具你也觉得被打脸？ 美国还不是要买英国的军火，法国买美国的，俄罗斯买法国的，英国就不用说了，五大国里面，凭什么中国就不能买别人一点军火？买了就是打脸了？那样全世界各国的脸还不早就都被打得噼哩啪啦了？怪不得地球都被打肿得像个球样了，呵呵。
家园 进口武器很正常，如果买了S400防空导弹，谁也不会说什么 这方面中国技术确实仍然赶不上俄罗斯，进口一些是不错的。
关键J20每天都在飞着--何副司令2009年11月在央视采访中说1年首飞，8-10年服役--2017-2019期间要服役；SU-27/su-30/J11/J15/J16系列连买带造，用了二十多年，搞了几百架；J31也首飞了；而那边居然要进口su-27的改进型su-35--反差有点大。