主题：没收麦道夫1700亿资产，美国政府在玩黑吃黑？ -- 抱朴仙人
家园 没收麦道夫1700亿资产，美国政府在玩黑吃黑？ 报道说美国政府没收了麦道夫1700亿美元的资产，这是把麦道夫骗来的钱统统罚没上缴国库的意思吗？如果是，那么这不是黑吃黑，剥夺了被骗客户的索赔机会？
要是政府可以这样干，干脆和骗子联营好了，一个负责骗，一个负责事后没收，反正不还给苦主。
咱们中国类似庞氏骗局的把戏还真不少，要是政府也来这一招，可是大发财啦。
家园 馊主意，咱中国政府终于学会了这一招 据说电信移动的行业垄断会被罚款的，可就没说把咱这些年多缴纳的宽带费用还回来。黑吃黑，究竟那个更黑啊！
因为这个主意是您老人家出的，是不是该问你要啊。哈哈哈
家园 要有1700亿给没收还至于破产嘛 家园 应该不会上缴国库 老美一般只有政府部门的罚款并且没有苦主才会上缴国库，比如前几年几大投行的各种违规操作。上了法庭的案子一般都有受害人，所以法庭没收的钱或者罚款一般都会分配给受害人，当然还有律师。
秦法官（Denny Chin ）的这份法庭没收麦道夫个人财产的指令目的是尽快和尽多地抢救资产以供未来分配给麦案的受害者。1710亿美元的金额是指在此金额内对老麦的财产实施没收。这个金额是所有可能涉嫌被老麦所骗资金的总和，而非老麦已经造成的损失。具体老麦到底造成了投资人多少损失还无法计算。但是初步计算的结果是至少损失132亿美元。
这种没收令是为了对抗老麦可能采取的避罪措施。比如，老麦可能利用一系列的有限责任公司来规避责任，也可能利用公司资产和个人私有资产的区别来保护自己的财产。这样要想证明和追回那些资产可能要经过漫长的法庭争斗。而在此过程中资产很可能流失，或者被老麦合法转移给亲属。这份法庭令一下，法庭先把所有跟老麦沾边的资产全部置于法庭的控制之下，尽可能地保护受害人的利益。
现在对老麦的刑事官司尘埃落定，真正牵涉到成千上万人切身利益的民事官司才刚刚拉开序幕。如果从老麦那里没收的资产少于所有投资人的投资的话（这一点现在基本可以肯定，但是不排除股市一夜之间变牛市的微小可能，比如出现美国版的“519大行情”
等等），那么如何分配这些资产就需要旷日持久的法庭厮打来实现了。处理这种“金融群体损失事件”我天朝倒是颇有经验，这种事件的代表有90年代初的全国范围内的高息揽存，有90年代末德隆的委托理财，有21世纪初的证券公司的保证金黑洞，波及的人无不数以百万计，涉及金额无不成百上千亿，内幕无不催人泪下骇人听闻。当然这事儿不能说太细
欢迎老美来取经
家园 抱一抱，十年少 家园 给个报道的原文文摘。 从新闻里还暂时看不出什么具体内容。
Yahoo News: Court order seeks to strip Madoff of $171 billion
Bernard Madoff would be stripped of all his possessions under a $171 billion forfeiture order handed down only days before prosecutors seek to put the disgraced financier away in prison for the rest of his life.U.S. District Judge Denny Chin entered the preliminary order Friday, ruling that Madoff must give up his interests in all property, including real estate, investments, cars and boats.
The forfeiture represents the total amount that could be connected to Madoff's fraud, not the amount stolen or lost, and the order made clear that nothing prevents other departments or entities from seeking to recover additional funds.
According to Friday's order, the government also settled claims against Madoff's wife. Under the arrangement, the government obtained Ruth Madoff's interest in all property, including more than $80 million-worth that she had claimed was hers, prosecutors said. The order left her $2.5 million in assets.The agreements strip the Madoffs of all their interest in properties belonging to them, including homes in Manhattan, Montauk, N.Y., and Palm Beach, Fla., worth a total of nearly $22 million. The Madoff's must also forfeit all insured or salable personal property contained in the homes.
Other seized assets include accounts at Cohmad Securities Corp., valued at almost $50 million, and at Wachovia Bank, valued at just over $13 million, and tens of millions of dollars in loans extended by Madoff to family, employees and friends.
家园 国内新闻是这样说的 1700亿是象征性罚款，法院和麦道夫的老婆谈判，她保留250万美金现金，其他8000多万固定资产全部没收。
1700亿仅仅是象征性罚款而已。判刑判了监禁150年。
所以我认为大家有点过度解读了。
家园 大概国内的报道不准确.应该是司法部门有权没收1700亿 这是YAHOO!FINANCE 的报道.
Madoff ordered to forfeit over $170 billion
NY prosecutors: Judge orders Bernard Madoff to forfeit over $170 billion
By Tom Hays, Associated Press Writer
On Friday June 26, 2009, 11:17 pm EDT
NEW YORK (AP) -- Disgraced financier Bernard Madoff has been ordered to forfeit over $170 billion, prosecutors said Friday.
U.S. District Judge Denny Chin entered a preliminary order of forfeiture Friday, according to Acting U.S. Attorney Lev Dassin. The order forces Madoff to give up his interests in all property, including real estate, investments, cars and boats.
According to earlier court documents, prosecutors reserved the right to pursue more than $170 billion in criminal forfeiture. That represents the total amount of money that could be connected to the fraud, not the amount stolen or lost.
The government also settled claims against Madoff's wife, according to Friday's order. Under the arrangement, the government obtained Ruth Madoff's interest in all property, including more than $80 million of property to which she had claimed was hers, prosecutors said.
The order makes it clear, though, that nothing precludes other departments or entities from seeking to recover additional funds
The agreements strip the Madoffs of all their interest in properties belonging to them, including a homes in Manhattan, Montauk, and Palm Beach, Fla., worth a total of nearly $22 million.
Federal prosecutors want Madoff to be sentenced to 150 years in prison. He is due in court on Monday for sentencing in his massive fraud case.
大意就是说法官下令司法部门有权向梅道夫没收1700亿.这1700亿是可能和他的犯罪活动有关的资金总额,而不是他骗取的资金,或个人财产的数目.
这老小子行骗四十多年,经手的钱一定是个天文数字.但这并不等于经手的钱全部进自己腰包.要不他怎能再骗.
老小子骗了四十多年,当过NASDAQ的主席.谁知道接着查下去,会不会有更大的事.检察官和法官也就是给个大数,省得数写小了以后再改麻烦.
老梅这件事也就是一超级大丑闻,对美国的金融政策没什么影响.真正有深远影响的是高胜(Goldman Sachs)的人对美国政府高层的全面渗透和操纵.
家园 嘿嘿，这1700亿一收，基尼系数是不是要下降？不是坏事嘛 林彪同志教育俺们：政权就是镇压之权。他经济学不知道有几成功力，可能是故意没有说透——谁说镇压一定要用枪杆子……
家园 秉大统领：枪杆子， 按老马的学说，是政权的支柱，政权的一切行为都是以枪杆子为后盾推行的，但不等于都要直接出动枪杆子。
就像港片里黑帮上街收保护费，一般都不用拿上西瓜刀的。
家园 美国政府和瑞银的官司下个月（7月）开庭； 迫使瑞银开放美国人账户以便查税。拭目以待！
UBS Case Not Being Dropped, Justice Department Says
See:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axqx0zRWsaKw
家园 就是美国开始对犹太人下手了 这招希特勒早就用过。在危机时剥夺犹太人的财产，进行财产再分配。
从新闻看，所谓1700亿并非 Madoff 的个人资产，而是和 Madoff 案有联系的任何人的资产。呵呵，在我们的大明朝，这招叫做“瓜蔓抄”。也就是顺藤摸瓜，把所有和 Madoff 有关人等的财产一起没收。
所以，认为美国不会搞株连的朋友们可以清醒点了。
当然，老美法官会理直气壮的告诉你他搞“瓜蔓抄”是怕 Madoff 转移财产。而且按照美国法律，任何从庞氏骗局中得益的人都要把至少五年内的收益吐出来。Madoff 的庞氏局搞了不止五年，直到去年还每年给他的客户发 10%-15% 不等的年利息。这当然都是要追索的。
Madoff 的很多客户都是犹太人。而能入他的庞氏局的人都至少是百万富翁。这么一来，把这么大一批人的财产名正言顺的充公，当然对美国经济不无小补。而且还能树立美国政府打击罪犯铁面无私的形象。通过告诉大家有 1700 亿美元，和没收对象中多为犹太人，则进一步深化了大家对犹太人贪得无厌的恶劣印象，为进一步打击犹太势力做好了准备。