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主题:【原创】一美元总裁与北美经济 -- 晨枫

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        • 家园 前面已经有帖子说明了,现在三大的生产效率已经和日本差不多

          但是福利担子让成本剧增。十年前的确效率落后日本,但现在已经差不多了。

          并且效率问题,也是强势工会搞鬼所致。这次不把这个毒瘤拔掉,不如任其倒闭

          • 家园 说句笑话,欧美人的体形太大,效率肯定赶不上亚洲人。

            看看生产线上一个个200磅的工人,打死我也不相信他们干起活儿来能很猴子一样的亚洲人比。不知道有人做过研究吗,就是最简单的人机工程的动作研究,比较亚洲人种和高加索(含黑人)。 现在讲究compact car, small car, 200磅肉塞到focus里,钻来钻去,够受的。

            • 家园 日本汽车制造提高生产力是广泛使用机器人

              而不是用人来做。现在美国在这方面已经赶上来了。不知道什么时候中国的汽车工业才能探出头来。

              • 家园 车体结构框架是机器人都作了, 但是内部细节呢?从电视

                上看,好像三大车厂还是靠人在车里头折腾.

              • 家园 问题大概就是在这里----工人与机器人的工作的协调

                机器人的使用一般的会导致工人的闲置---企业要处理好工人和机器人之间工作安排的协作问题,这就需要比较柔性的企业制度

                我知道的是在日本企业内普遍的进行了一专多能的职业培训,当你的这个工种被机器人取代了的时候,可以转移到其他工种去----可以随时的进行转移,有了比较柔性的制度的话,那么工人和机器人之间的矛盾可以化解

                说一个国内的造船厂的例子吧---比如说平直的角焊缝,是有一种非常简易的半自动角焊机的,但是最终在一些船厂--至少在我当年实行的某家上海大工厂实行不了---因为如果用这个角焊机的话,工人没活干,没有活干的话工人就赚不到工时的钱---结果这样的简单的机械就难以运用了

                我们中国还是不敢大规模的裁员的,所以在机器人和工人发生冲突的时候,保留工人,而在美国,美国管理者们是非常敢于裁员的,但是这样的硬性的管理手段产生的副作用也是很大---为什么工会那么强硬,一方面也是因为管理方对于工人不够体恤的原因,造成了彼此间的严重对立

                • 家园 我觉得吧

                  1. 您没说到点子上,机器人的使用和企业制度的采用要看什么人和什么地方。美国工人就是给工会惯懒了(特指三大的工人),就是不乐意学新技术。而且三大一般还不敢乱裁。导致美国的新技术应用较为缓慢。即使运用了新技术,闲置下来的工人也无法解雇了事。

                  2. 您有些问题搞错了--比如到底是工会强硬还是管理层强硬,这个问题您是彻底搞错了。希望多看看美国的报纸和新闻,不要用马列主义思想来想事情

                  • 家园 无语了

                    我不知道您是在说老罗还是我。 一并回了吧。

                    “美国的报纸和新闻”只是消息来源的一种,您的建议只是从一个极端到了另一个极端。我在这里其实是是在戏说这个所谓生产力的说法,因为我根本没有做过专门研究, 纯属个人猜测。我的消息来源其实很窄,全是所谓的美国主流媒体,还有就是BusinessWeek,包括电视和网络上的广告。对于生产线的机器人的说法,我也是猜测,因为机器人用的再多还是要人在车里折腾的。我参观过北美汽车生产线(不是三大的), U字型的布局,从零开始一直到整车开出来,并没看到有机器人完成驾驶室和车厢内的组装工作。所谓生产销率的说法挺复杂,我们连他们用的公式是否一样都不知道, 光个收益率就有十个八个的公式,还有就是我们不知道(为了股价)有多少忽悠的成分在里头。我记得在BusinessWeek上好像看到过通用生产效率已经和日本差不多的说法。

                    有点遗憾的是,您给我(我们)的扣的小帽子实在冤枉。

                    在戏说一句, 现在有好多报告都说三大的质量已经赶上,福特的质量已与丰田比肩,伏特的广告也这么说。我想问,有多少消费者买这个帐呢?

          • 家园 作为一个曾经的生产现场管理者

            我对很多流行的文章是不相信的,美国造船厂学习日本经验几十年没有用就是例证,(中国的财经记者们以为美国商船制造业不行是因为人家实行了产业转移---看看现在汽车制造业工会不依不饶的样子,人家怎么肯把这样的产业舍弃掉,多少就业机会啊,实际原因就是美国商船制造没有竞争力,这是欧美制造业的通病)哪里那么快就能改进呢?

            就拿一个简单的员工培训成本来说,东亚企业强调员工对企业的忠诚,企业给员工以终身雇佣待遇,这样企业的培训成本就大大减少了,工人干活也更有干劲了,欧美企业特别是被私募基金控制下的企业(私募公司控制的企业为了方便制造舆论操纵市场,往往要做出坚决裁员的样子给资本市场看,实际上那是饮鸩止渴的做法)在这个方面是不如东亚企业的

            不知道该怎么找您说的那篇文章,可以给出链接来吗?

            • 家园 给您看帖子您肯定不信,我找到美国的网站的报道吧

              http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/jun2008/bw2008065_834270.htm

              U.S. Automakers See Surge in Efficiency

              The 2008 Harbour Report indicates that there is near parity among the top three U.S. and top three Japanese automakers

              by David Kiley

              Lifestyle

              Good news is hard to come by at Chrysler these days. Its sales have been tanking, and industry observers regularly chatter about whether Cerberus Capital made a worse mistake buying the automaker last year at the front end of a recession than Daimler-Benz did in 1999. But the influential Harbour Report produced by consulting firm Oliver Wyman, which annually tracks factory productivity, says Chrysler's restructuring under Daimler-Benz made its factories as efficient as those of industry leader Toyota (TM).

              Those two companies hold a marginal lead over General Motors (GM) and Ford (F), as well as Honda (HMC), Nissan (NSANY), and Hyundai (HYMPY). In fact, the chief author of the study, Ron Harbour, says: "There is near parity among the top three American and top three Japanese automakers." He notes that Detroit's improvement has been staggering and stands in stark contrast to the 1990s, "when the Japanese beat Detroit in productivity two-to-one."

              The year-over-year improvement by Chrysler, the best in the industry, couldn't be happening at a better time for the U.S. industry—or Chrysler. "Sales are falling, and the shift to smaller cars is happening faster than the Detroit companies can adapt their manufacturing and downsize," says Harbour. "Can you imagine how much they'd be hurting if they hadn't been making these improvements?"

              Chrysler and Toyota take 30.37 human hours to produce a vehicle on average, across all manufacturing of vehicles and parts that go into them. GM takes 32.29 hours, and Ford takes 33.88 hours.

              Detroit's Car Challenge

              Greater productivity should lead to bigger profits. Despite the near parity among automakers, there is a gulf between the most profitable and least profitable because of the health-care costs and head counts that were in place last year when Harbour's data were collected. Nissan and Honda both earned $1,641 per vehicle last year, followed by Toyota's $922 per vehicle. By contrast, Chrysler lost $412 per vehicle, while GM lost $729 and Ford lost $1,467. All profits were down among the major carmakers because of softening sales of pickup trucks and big SUVs, which pack more profit than passenger cars.

              Harbour, whose company has been tracking auto industry productivity since 1980, says the Detroit Three are going to be severely challenged for a few years because of how fast consumers are moving out of trucks and into cars. "These companies have gotten used to earning as much with one pickup truck or big SUV as they do selling 10 passenger cars."

              Why is that? A truck or SUV actually takes more steel and other raw materials to build than most passenger cars. But the engineering and assembly of a truck tends to be cheaper, and auto companies have been smart about loading up trucks with features that carry high profit margins. The best-positioned companies right now, says Harbour, are those that are able to build cars, trucks, and SUVs at a single plant to cope with rapid shifts in consumer demand.

              Chrysler officials have worked at increasing productivity across the board since 2001, when then-German owner DaimlerChrysler moved aggressively to cut costs. "We set out to reach this goal in 2001 when we had the highest HPV [hours per vehicle] among the North American OEMs [original equipment manufacturers] that are tracked in The Harbour Report, and to have reached this goal is truly an example of how successful we can be," said Frank Ewasyshyn, Chrysler's executive vice-president for manufacturing.

              Quality Expectations

              The Japanese have long been the productivity leaders, but their operations are being challenged by slower sales as well. Toyota and Nissan, especially, have invested in pickup truck and SUV production in the past few years. None of Nissan's products in this category have been strong sellers. And though Toyota's pickups and SUVs have been better received by the public, sales in those categories are slipping. And in contrast with the Detroit companies, which have been laying off or retiring workers, Toyota, for example, has not been laying off employees even though it has fewer vehicles to build. "It's just the way Toyota operates, so it's even more impressive that it lost only 1.5% in its productivity rating in 2007," says Harbour.

              With productivity gains tend to come increases in quality. As carmakers have focused on designing potential problems out of their vehicles from the first hour of computer-generated design and making assembly methods at factories simpler and more stress free, vehicle quality has risen.

              But there are exceptions. Harbour's top U.S. assembly plant for productivity is a Jeep plant in Toledo, Ohio, that manufactures the Jeep Wrangler (BusinessWeek.com, 9/10/07). But this week, J.D. Power & Associates noted that Jeep had fallen to dead last in quality, as measured in the first 90 days of ownership. "Jeeps are pretty easy to put together," said Harbour. "But they had a good sales year last year with the four-door Wrangler, and I think a lot of people who bought a Jeep for the first time didn't realize what a rough ride they can be coming out of a nice comfortable car."

              If sales projections are right, and U.S. consumers are going to be buying many more of those comfortable and more fuel-efficient cars—and fewer SUVs and pickups—the automakers are going to have to dig deeper and wring even more efficiency and profit out of the plants that build them.

              当然,问题还不仅仅是福利,而是SUV和Pickup的销量正在下降---这些正式三大的优势和利润来源。三大能否适时适应这种转变以及是否已经准备好了,只能拭目以待了。

              • 家园 还是说明他们转变的速度太慢

                如果我没有看错的话,那么这一句:These companies have gotten used to earning as much with one pickup truck or big SUV as they do selling 10 passenger cars."---意思是说造一辆皮卡或者SUV的利润是造一辆轿车所获的利润的十倍

                美国汽车制造厂商在皮卡 SUV方面的销售的总数无论如何应该比日本厂商多很多,而日本厂商的利润的来源大部分来自于轿车(我没有看多少资料,这是我的猜测,如果不对,请指出),日本厂商可以在利润微薄的轿车类别当中获取到那么多的利润,说明了他们的成本控制能力比美国汽车制造厂商是要强不少的

                原油价格开始飙升已经有一两年的时间了,而三大在这么长的时间内都没有能够调整过来,说明了他们的调整生产的能力不是很高,而柔性生产方式或者精益生产方式强调的就是调整生产的能力,可以随时根据市场订单的改变而调整生产

              • 家园 被裁员的员工美国公司需要为其购买部分医疗保险吗?

                我认为美国公司的医疗保险等等福利负担重的一个原因可能是公司通过裁员来压缩成本,而被解雇的员工公司依然要承担一部分的负担

                反过来看,丰田汽车就不通过裁员来压缩成本

                据介绍:

                Toyota, for example, has not been laying off employees even though it has fewer vehicles to build. "It's just the way Toyota operates, so it's even more impressive that it lost only 1.5% in its productivity rating in 2007," says Harbour

                实际上分析一个公司的成本控制情况还应该考虑到公司的开工率和公司的规模(有规模就有规模效益),为什么美国公司倾向于通过裁员来提高生产率,降低成本,是因为当公司开工率不足的情况下,员工过多就意味着浪费,而上面的引文则说明丰田汽车公司的开工率甚至更低“it has fewer vehicles to build.”

                用一个指标--- HPV [hours per vehicle] 来衡量企业生产效率是一个办法,但是可能并不全面

                另外丰田公司的pickup 和SUV 受到了更多的好评

                Toyota's pickups and SUVs have been better received by the public, sales in those categories are slipping

                这可能说明了丰田公司具有更好的质量控制能力

                • 家园 我想你理解有些错误

                  首先,在美国health care,公司负担比例多少是公司和工会商谈的结果。三大工会过于强大,公司负担太重。即使裁员,对生产工人的福利仍然远高于日本在美国的公司。因为日本在美国的公司没有这样的强势工会。

                  其次,关于pickup和SUV。

                  原文的意思是这本来是三大的利润来源。因为他们组装简单,利润高,而且原本美国市场pickup和SUV更受欢迎。三大在这块市场占有率是远高于日本厂家的。但是现状是car目前在美国越来越受欢迎,car才是日本厂家全面打败美国车的战场。而至于说到toyota的better received by the public,只是对比其他日本厂家而言。相对美国公司,日本厂家没有优势。

                  总结一下,原本美国厂家优势的市场(pickup和SUV)在萎缩,而家用小车(car)市场就是在增加。仅此而已了

                  • 家园 组装简单的话对于精益生产的要求就不高了

                    精益生产按照我的理解就是体现为工人---机器人---零部件----工作场地-----加工质量以及各个不同班组之间的协同化

                    我当年在一家小企业,我知道我们厂造一条船有的时候要用一年多的时间----主要是船舶下水以后停靠在码头,有很多的舾装件需要在码头上安装,而技术先进的大厂(根据我在中华网看到的一个丰田高级官员的看法---不验证他说的话的真实性)据说日本造船厂可以造一条8万吨级的船从签单到交船只要35天---这说明他们的工序进行了充分的合理化,无论如何他们的造船的周期可以短很多这是真实的,这也是全世界在造船方面都向日本学习的原因(韩国学习得最好)

                    美国企业的HPV不知道是怎么计算的,因为每个厂家生产的汽车的类型并不相同,那么他们计算平均每辆车生产工时是怎么平均的呢?显然安装简单的汽车的生产工时可以不需要那么的多

                    • 家园 唉,原文说的很清楚了

                      这家调查公司每年都追踪各个汽车厂的各种情况。

                      HPV是按照每个category来统计的。一个职业的调查公司不会不分category进行一刀切的统计的。唉。都说了三大的问题不是生产效率的问题。是产品结构和过高的工人福利负担的问题。

                      而产品结构,和工会为工人争取的福利又是有联系的

      • 家园 工会暴政?

        这就是屁股决定脑袋的一个明显特征。

        你认为中国的血汗工厂的存在是件好事?新劳动法是件坏事?

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