主题：【原创】美国视角1: 中国在朝鲜战争中的角色 -- 爱吃肉的兔子

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老大河待整

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复转载-毛泽东：论抗美援朝战争胜利的伟大意义

家园

儿子牺牲了还要说危险没什么了不起

有几个人能做到？做到的就很了不起。

复 Relax.请参见有限战争定义

家园

没看出来有不现实的地方

统一战争中动用核武是天经地义的事情.已经什么都没有了,拖一个下水没啥了不起.要是怕这怕那,就别统一了.人家制定战争计划时可从来都没把核武排除在外.几次计划核打击中国.

复邓还好吧。

家园

火烤胸前暖，风吹背后寒，身体是革命的本钱.

北极熊胃口好，身板好，架不住红眼病，吃进去的目前吐出来不少.漫漫攒本钱.

复【原创】美国视角1: 中国在朝鲜战争中的角色

家园

【原创】美国视角5：被击落的美军王牌

背景介绍: Harold E. Fischer, Jr.1925年生于美国IOWA州,1950年朝鲜战争爆发时是美国空军上尉,驾驶洛克希德(现在生产F22猛禽战斗机的公司)的F-80战斗轰炸机，执行过105次战斗任务,随后转飞北美飞机公司的F-86战斗机，他取得了击坠10次的格斗记录.是美军双料王牌(美军称为双料ACE). 1953年,在第70次战斗飞行中被我军的王牌飞行员(五次击坠)韩德彩击落.

F-80战斗轰炸机,志愿军称之为油挑子也.

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F-80的作战

From Japan it was a long way. We could make a few passes, and then we'd refuel at Taegu. It was all ground support, attacking Communist troops, vehicles, trains if you could catch them. Actually, during the day the trains went into tunnels, and we would try to close the entrances. We carried 500-pound bombs, napalm and rockets, and we had our six .50-caliber machine guns. The most effective was napalm — you didn't exactly have to hit the target.

驾驶F-80战斗轰炸机从日本要飞很久。我们能飞几个来回.然后我们会在韩国大邱加油。基本都是地面火力支援.只要能抓住他们, 我们会攻击共产党军队，以及他们的汽车，火车。事实上，在白天, 即使列车进入隧道，我们也会尝试攻击关闭隧道出口。我们使用的武器有500磅炸弹，凝固汽油弹，火箭，我们还有6挺机载0.50口径的机枪。最有效的武器是凝固汽油弹.因为你不用准确击中目标（汽油弹的杀伤范围很广）。(注:美军的攻击可见猖狂,毛岸英烈士就是在被凝固汽油弹击中阵亡.)

F-86战斗机

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转飞F-86战斗机

In my F-80 squadron there was a lot of experience, even people who flew original jets, but they hardly talked. With the F-86 squadron it was different. You could evaluate who was successful and who was not, who wanted to fight and who did not, and who was there for political reasons — to do the thing you needed to do for your career. You learn from other people. You could learn a lot at the bar. I didn't always know enough to ask.

在我待过的F-80中队,很多人很有经验，甚至有最早飞行喷气战斗机的，但他们很少交谈。这个与F-86中队不同。你可以猜测谁是成功的，谁不是，谁渴望战斗，谁不是，谁来是由于政治原因为自己将来的事业打基础。你可以学习别人。在酒吧聊天,你可以学到很多。我并不总是知道问些问题。(注:看来那里都是一样,有混日子的,有勇敢的,有目的明确的.)

米格15战斗机,很好看

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第一次击坠

I moved up into lead, and when I saw the MiGs — they were everywhere — I called that I was going to make a bounce. So I took this bounce, and actually I didn't have a target in sight. Then two MiGs started going north. They were a long distance away, and I used Kentucky windage and tracers, and just fired short bursts. Eventually, one of the two started a descent to the left. So I fired again, and then moved up beside the aircraft. I saw the canopy gone and no pilot. I turned around and started climbing out, and there was the pilot in a parachute. I didn't have time to pull the circuit breakers to deactivate the guns, so I just moved to the right and fired a few rounds to activate the camera. I flew right by him and waved. He had a ribbon parachute like the Germans used in World War II, and a lot of cold weather flying equipment. Doug had told me you'll never sleep the first night you get a kill. And he was right — you keep reliving it.

在战斗飞行中,我先上升到长机位置，当我看到米格15战斗机-他们无处不在-我对自己说，我要打下一个。然后我开始寻找，实际上一开始我并没有看到目标。然后，我发现两架米格战斗机向北飞。他们离我很远，我凭借经验和曳光弹来估计风向引起的水平偏差，开始点射机枪火力。终于，两架里的一个开始从左侧下坠。然后，我再次开火，然后飞到那个飞机的旁边。我看到了驾驶舱，但没有飞行员。我转了个圈，开始爬升，我看到一个降落伞和飞行员。我没有时间去拉开断路器,停止我的机载机枪火力. 我向右转,发射了几颗子弹来启动机载相机(记录击坠来报战功)。我飞到了飞行员的右边,并向他招手。他有一个像二战德军使用的条带式降落伞，身上穿着寒冷天气的飞行配置。DOUG(Mr.Fischer的教官,皇家加拿大空军飞行员,二战王牌)曾告诉我,当你有第一次猎杀记录的时候,那天晚上你睡不着。他是对的-那天晚上我总是会回想。(注:两个要点,远距离,偷袭.Mr.Fisher还有点良心,没有射杀飞行员,但为了记录,也好不到那里去)

第五次击坠

When I first fired on him, the MiG was a long distance away, flying toward China. He started to burn. He slowed, and I was able to go up alongside. I saw the pilot, beating on the canopy. He couldn't get out. I didn't want him to burn to death, so I dropped back, intending to shoot him down. I was behind and very close. The burning MiG was streaming molten metal back on my aircraft and caused one of the rounds in my guns to explode. That severed the rudder cable, and I thought I'd been hit. I lost pressurization. It became a question of whether I could get back or not. I came back at 43,000 feet, as high as the F-86 could get, and I got the bends because there was no pressurization. I felt sad about the MiG pilot. I had felt no animosity toward him.

当我第一次朝他开火的时候，米格15战斗机离我还很远，他正朝着中国方向飞行。飞机开始燃烧。然后放缓，我飞到他的旁边。我看到飞行员击打座舱盖，他无法脱身。我不想他被活活烧死，所以我稍微向后退了点，打算向他开火(给个解脱)。我飞到他后面，距离非常近。以致于燃烧的米格战斗机熔化的金属甚至流到我的飞机上，导致一颗子弹在飞机机枪里爆炸了。这切断了尾舵钢缆，我还以为我被击中了。我的座舱失去压力。不过现在的首要问题是我能不能飞回去，所以我保持在4万3千英尺，也就是F86能飞到的最高高度，飞了回去（以便如果有其它机械故障还能滑翔回场），结果因为座舱失压，我得了减压病。我为被击中的米格飞行员感到难过。我个人对他没有敌意。(注:向牺牲的飞行员致敬.Mr.Fischer有点良心,我是说,战场上给必死的敌人一个痛快也是一种敬意.)

被韩德彩击落

I saw four other airplanes and initiated an attack on them. I allowed for the problem with the guns and hit two of the MiGs, both Russians. Years later I talked with the Russian pilots. One of them said I had hit him 14 times, right behind the cockpit in the wing root. He had to land with his wheels up. The second MiG I hit was also a Russian aircraft. And there was a third MiG that I hit really hard, and it crashed. When I bailed out there was this one MiG that was floating around. He had no power and was burning. I thought he was coming toward me, and all I had was my .45. I think he was Chinese, but I'm not sure. With the MiG where I saw the numbers 341 on its side, I had this bad feeling about getting ahead of the target. In this case, all kinds of debris was coming off the MiG in front of me — the third one — and I pulled up through it. And there, right over the top of him, my engine died, the throttle came back in my hand and the warning lights came on. We were told that when you have fire warning lights, you've got 30 seconds to bail out. I was just high enough so there was an opening shock when I ejected. I came down on the side of a hill. I didn't have a hard landing because my parachute got caught up on some shrubbery.

我看到4架米格飞机(Mr.Fisher当时正在偷袭我方降落的飞机)，并开始对他们开火。尽管我的机枪有问题，我还是击中了对方，头两个是苏联人。几年后，我与被击落的俄罗斯飞行员交谈。其中一人说我打中他14次，位置在右机翼根部驾驶舱后面。他最后没有起落架机腹朝地。第二架被击落地米格也是俄罗斯人。还有第三架米格15，我真的打地很厉害，他在坠毁。当我跳伞时候,我看到这架米格在盘旋。那架飞机在燃烧,并且也失去动力.我当时以为他在向我飞过来，而我有的只是我的0.45口径手枪。我想他是中国飞行员，但我不能肯定。（回忆关于被击落的瞬间）我有种很糟糕的感觉，怕冲到目标前面，我看到那架米格飞机侧面编号为341. 在当时，被击落的，就是第三架被击落的米格飞机散发出来的各种碎片在我面前飞舞。于是我就把飞机拉起来（减速）。在他的正上方，我的引擎突然死掉，油门杆在手里向后滑，机载警示灯也亮了(当时韩德彩在他上面,直接击中了他)。我们训练的时候被告知，当你有火灾危险警告灯，你必须在30秒内摆脱困境。我当时的高度刚刚够跳伞，所以我很害怕，当我弹出来的时候,我落在在山丘的另一边。我的着陆还好，因为我的降落伞挂在一些灌木林上。(注:韩德彩打的好,看得解气.)

韩德彩照片

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Mr.Fischer的照片

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战俘感想

I feel I was lucky to be a prisoner of the Chinese. They treat their prisoners the way they treat their troops, in the way they feed and house them. It was not the way the North Koreans did it.

我觉得我很幸运，我是说作为中国人的战俘。他们对待战俘和对待他们自己的军队差不多,我吃的和住的和他们一样。这可不是北朝鲜军队对战俘的方式。

花絮1: 根据Mr.Fisher的回忆,其实他们和美国政府早知道早期作战的飞行员来自前苏联.后来的中方飞行员是在短暂培训后参战的.朝鲜空军没有米格15,驾驶的都是雅克战斗机.

花絮2: Mr.Fisher可能看电影多了,在关押的时候还打通墙壁,试图假扮苏联人,偷一架米格飞机逃跑.被我志愿军战士抓获.居然没被枪毙.真是让我们感叹志愿军的宽大.

花絮3:2009年Mr.Fisher在Las Vegas,Nevada去世的时候,

无耻的美国下流大报纽约时报还造谣说Mr.Fisher在战俘营被虐待(Tortured).

结尾: 1955年五月Mr.Fisher被释放回美,两个月后恢复战斗任务.其后也参加了越南战争,不过,改开直升机了. 1996年,他来中国访问,见到了击落他的韩德彩将军,并赠送了F-86战斗机模型.

两人合影照片: 左二是Fischer,左三是韩德彩

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关键词(Tags): #抗美援朝，#米格，#空战，#韩德彩， 通宝推：侧翼,舞月轻云,

本帖一共被 1 帖引用 (帖内工具实现)

【原创】美国视角1: 中国在朝鲜战争中的角色

复【原创】美国视角5：被击落的美军王牌

家园

整个战争，唯一没有虐俘的就是中方

仁义之师，岂是虚名哉！

复【原创】美国视角5：被击落的美军王牌

家园

这句的翻译似乎不太准确

and who was there for political reasons — to do the thing you needed to do for your career.

谁来是由于政治原因(镀金)，谁是把飞行当作自己事业的。

我认为原句后半句的意思是：为以后的晋升积累资历。为前面的“政治原因”加以注释。

复【原创】美国视角5：被击落的美军王牌

家园

有修改,加了很多照片.

可以看看.

复这句的翻译似乎不太准确

家园

谢谢.我原稿给弄丢了.

新临时写的稿子可能有错误.谢谢提醒.

复整个战争，唯一没有虐俘的就是中方

家园

老美现在在反攻倒算

纽约时报公然撒谎,说Fisher被虐待.TNND.

复【原创】美国视角5：被击落的美军王牌

家园

志愿军对待战俘比对自己的队伍还好

I feel I was lucky to be a prisoner of the Chinese. They treat their prisoners the way they treat their troops, in the way they feed and house them. It was not the way the North Koreans did it.

郑凯梅的《美国兵眼里的战争》里也提到过，刚开始美军战俘吃的是和志愿军一样的口粮，但是他们吃惯了肉的肠胃根本无法消化。反过来，南朝鲜军的战俘给一碗高粱米粥就能活下来。

鉴于这种情况，志愿军总部从国内紧急运过来一批细粮和肉、蛋、奶，给这些王八蛋享用。

郑凯梅的书里面还谈到一个美国兵逃跑了三次被抓回来都没有被枪毙。其中第三次逃跑的时候，还顺手端掉了一个志愿军的高射机枪阵地（这个阵地上的射手刚在前两天击落一架美军轰炸机），被抓住的时候其他志愿军战士气愤地要杀了他，结果被干部制止了，带回战俘营。连作者（郑凯梅）听说这个事情后都非常气愤，打电话质问他的上级查理上校：“中国人对伊顿那么好、那么多次救了他（有好几次从人民军手上把他给救下来，有一次还动了枪，虽然没有打起来），为什么他逃跑的时候还要杀中国军人？”回答是久久的沉默。

就是伊顿自己，在接受郑凯梅采访的时候也只是提到了前两次从战俘营逃跑的经历，他说不想把第三次的经历告诉她，因为伊顿自己受不了。凯梅回家几天后收到伊顿寄来一个包裹，里面是他的战争回忆录，是他口述，他的妻子从打字机上打出来的。翻看这些回忆录，可以看出在70年代的时候，伊顿谈到自己逃跑过程中“孤胆”杀死两个中国机枪手的经历颇为自豪，而且对中国军人很多侮辱的词汇，但越到后面，这样的词汇用得越少，对敌手的评价也更客观。直到接受凯梅采访的时候，内心的愧疚都无法让他坦白地面对面说出第三次逃跑的经过。

这本书写得不错，建议大家看一看。

复志愿军对待战俘比对自己的队伍还好

家园

应该毙了这个伊顿

不过高机阵地为啥防备这么懈怠？还让他干掉两个？

复【原创】美国视角5：被击落的美军王牌

家园

这里lead是长机的意思

僚机就是wing。

复志愿军对待战俘比对自己的队伍还好

家园

中国人向来就是如此，外宽内严啊