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主题:【求助】关于志愿军打美军空降兵的战例 -- 萨苏

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家园 萨兄:看你的历史回忆,特别是对解放军的正面记述和评论

感到自豪,比那些所谓历史真相的垃圾文章不知强多少倍了。以后多发些此类文章,让那些垃圾们知道什么是真正的中国军队。

家园 印象中似乎就是从朝鲜战争开始的

自从有一支整编制的黑人连队投降志愿军,打破独立战争后零的记录后。

家园 我的看法(下)

(接上部)现在的问题已经集中到了Sang Kwiryang这个地方了,那么这究竟是哪儿呢?

研究地理最有用的是地图,研究打仗当然最好是军用地图。下面两张是哪个时期的美军军用地图,比例1:250,000

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

先来找580.7高地

这个问礼里,地点在南朝鲜春川和加平以南,洪川江的南岸,问礼里北山,又名580.7高地。

580.7高地在地图中被标记成581是说得过去的,它应该在第二张图中洪川江以南、上贵良以西(美军Reference: CS8068)。问礼里应该就是Kwiryang-ni(CS8166),在581高地的东南方向。581高地和Kwiryang-ni之间有一座小山,应该就是萨文中的无名高地,看地图那里很容易被三路围攻。

现在我们回到开头,哪里是Sang Kwiryang呢?Sang Kwiryang我认为就是图中的Sanggwiryang(CS8167),拼写上差了一个字母可能是因为1)英文中k和g很容易混,或者2)拼写受了Kwiryang-ni的影响。从这个地理位置可以看出,Ralph W. Sutton下士显然是在志愿军进攻无名高地的战斗中阵亡了。

这次战斗中第二游骑兵连只损失一人,这显然与萨文中志愿军共击毙敌军200余名的说法有较大距离。我的看法是:第二游骑兵连是参战部队,但未必是主力。而且由于游骑兵的素质高,即便在同等情况下他们的损失也会比其他部队要小。


本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
家园 我上了两张地图,看是不是对你有用

我的看法(下)

家园 花您。

没见您灌水,只见您抢沙发。

哟,回错了,这是回复沉宝的。

家园 意见

几点意见:

美军在朝战中使用的时间当然是以事件发生的当地时间为准,萨苏认为有时差,那是想差了。要真是这样,朝鲜战争爆发美国人就该记载成1950年6月24日,因汉城6月25日清晨战争发动时,华盛顿可还是24日下午而已。所以第1游骑兵连死亡多人的19日,自然是韩国时间的5月19日。

还有,第五次战役第二阶段,志愿军打到最南的地方不是这里,而是更东边,应该是12军31师93团的单位,利用27军击溃韩5师、7师的空隙,和81师突穿深入。

580.7高地即美军地图581高地,此时期美军地图标高到个位数为止。美军地图跟志愿军地图一样都出自日本朝鲜总督府在明治末年至昭和初年编绘的朝鲜半岛地图,少则二十年,多则四十年的旧地图,时空变迁,连道路村庄都不见得对,要说山的高度精确到0.1米而数十年不变,那还真不太容易。

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/korea/txu-oclc-6612232-nj52-10.jpg

沈宝兄找到的美军地图是对的。581高地(座标CS8068),往西南隔着山谷的小山包就是小理山(479 高地,CS7866),山包西边脚下的 Mullei-ri 应该就是问礼里(Munrei-ri),因为是从日本地图急就章编绘,拼法有出入很正常;而且,韩文至英文的统一拼法也是韩国政府後来才订定的。

http://www.history.army.mil/books/korea/maps/map35_full.jpg

美国第2游骑兵连此时配属於美7师,此地是第7师防线中间,正面是32团,右边是31团,不太会跟其他部队搞混。所以只要查查美7师这两天的损失就可以了。

http://www.koreanwar.org/html/korean_war_databases.html

1951.5.19 - 美7师没有死亡。

1951.5.20 - 美7师配属第2游骑兵连死1人,第17团死6人,第31团死1人。

1951.5.21 - 美7师第17团死3人,第32团死1人。

1951.5.22 - 美7师第17团死1人,第31团死3人,第32团死1人。

1951.5.23 - 美7师第32团死2人。

而其中只有5月20日第17团死亡中的1人是失踪死,没有其他人被俘。

家园 差太远了

200和1, 数字怎么差那么大?

家园 感谢萨大的辛勤劳动
家园 很有帮助,准备稍后就着您的发现再补充几点。
意见
家园 我手里的资料讲美7师从5.20到5.22死16,伤95

详细的情况随后附上。

意见
家园 英29旅不在这个地区

再一点,前面萨苏提到英29旅和美7师反攻小理山是很有问题的。

英29旅配属於美第一军,在第五次战役第一阶段部署在汉城以北临津江,格罗斯特营在此役被歼灭。4月29日西线大致稳定,调至金浦半岛布防警戒汉江口北岸集结的人民军部队。五月中为美第一军在汉城防线的预备队,没叁加第二阶段的战斗。

英28旅离小理山是比较近。英27旅在第一阶段防守加平,後来美第9军根据范佛理特命令全线撤退至金色防线(Line Golden),英27旅与英28旅轮调,英27旅旅部及大部分单位返国。英28旅布署於美第9军左翼,一样也没叁加美9军右翼美第7师在第二阶段的战斗。

家园 应该不是第1空降游骑兵连

从第1空降游骑兵连遭受重大伤亡的时间来看主要集中在5月18日和19日,战斗的地点是Hill 710,而他们的对手是志愿军三兵团。

有一篇Villa Lew的回忆文章,作者本人在此战中被俘,摘录如下,

外链出处

HILL 710

A major enemy attack was developing, (here we go again), and that the Chinese designed to drive the UN forces into the sea. The 3rd Chinese Army Group, consisting of 12 divisions, (120,000) men, would first break through the 5th and 7th ROK divisions. These Chinese forces would then turn west, striking the 2nd US Division. Designed to destroy the division’s communications and thus cut off its forward forces.

The 1st Ranger Company was ordered to move forward by trucks to regain positions originally occupied by the withdrawing Dutch Battalion. It was past midnight when we moved forward into the gap, as we climbed the dark slopes we met Dutch soldiers pulling back. Their words were encouraging “If you go up that hill, you won’t be coming back.” We continued to climb the hill. On the trail up to the vacated positions we came under heavy fire, Robertson was killed. We dropped our packs and move steadily upward and attacked. We accomplished our mission of retaking hill 710. Throughout the remaining hours of darkness, there was a steady stream of Chinese counterattacks, some of them even were getting in to our trenches. I could hear to my left the Rangers and Chinese in hand-to-hand combat; Clopton from my squad was killed. The Chinese were beaten off. Clinging to our positions, we helped provide time for the 2nd division to adjust its forces for the continued onslaught. The Chinese were paying a terrible price for there successes, so were we.

In the first 24 hours of their attack the 2nd Division Artillery fired 30,149 rounds of ammunition, causing an estimated 5000 enemy casualties. During daylight of the 18th, the Chinese did not attack us. We watched long columns of Chinese on higher ground to our left bypassing us. They were using a double envelopment to finish the remnants of the 1st Battalion 38th Infantry. (I was to learn later that the Chinese were three miles behind us.) Our misfortunes were getting worst; the enemy was not the only ones to engage us. Two US Marine Corsairs swooped down and machine-gunned our position. To my left on higher ground, a Chinese sniper’s fire killed at least seven Rangers, including Lieutenant Herman (West Point 1946) I witnessed one of the bravest acts I had ever seen in saving a man’s life instead and taking them. PFC Robert Mastin repeatedly risked his life to help the wounded the sniper was shooting. Time after time he was struck by enemy fire, yet he continued to bring wounded men under shelter and attend to their injuries. His severe wounds finally stopped his courageous heart. Posthumously Mastin was recommended for the Medal of Honor.

Sometime during the night our radioman and our SCR-300 were lost. Captain Carrier was in a bunker with a radio SCR-619 that must have been use by a Dutch artillery observer; it was left in the bunker when they left. Captain Carrier asked if anyone could operate it, I hollered, “I know how,” and ran to the bunker. Chatter was coming in all day from the 2nd Division. At 1700 hours word came over the radio that I thought only happened in the movies, “Get off the hill and back to the 38th Infantry the best way you can.” I was behind Captain Carrier, he asked if I destroyed the radio, my answer was no. He said, “Go back and destroy it.” I ran back to the bunker, took my 45 and shot it dead. By this time it began to rain, shells were coming in from

everywhere, it was getting dark and I was by myself and scared to death till I found two other Rangers. The three of us were going to get off of hill 710 together. It was not to be, I was in the lead and it wasn’t long before I was hit, the other two men were dead and I was alone again. At this point in time I didn’t care anymore. I had an infected left leg and a small wound in my right leg. I need a drink of water and crawled to the streambed. While getting my drink I looked up and saw a man carrying a soldier on this back. Not wanting to be alone again, I yelled that I’d give him help carrying the man. He had a terrible wound to his leg, not much was left of it. We went a short distant and had to rest. We hid in a thicket of bushes. It was now dark, I was exhausted and so was the man I was helping, we soon fallen a sleep. Sometime later loud talking awaked us. It was the Chinese who were all around us. When daylight came we checked our wounded man, he was dead. The man that was first carrying him was Ed Dubreuil a Ranger replacement. It wasn’t long before the Chinese, I mean a lot of Chinese, found us, and their leader was a very tall man with a hair-lip. They searched us and, the only thing they took was my camera. They offered us a drink of water, we both accepted.

The battle that we were in was called the MAY MASSACRE. For many years I thought it was called that because of the number of men from the 2nd Division and the Rangers who were killed and wounded. It was called that because of the Chinese killed.

These were the Ranger losses.

Rangers that were killed in the May Massacre

Officers

Lieutenants A. Herman***R. Fuller***A. Vismor

L. Oluich P.Lotti H.Robertson H.Tompson

J. Clopton C.Vesy

R. Evans

C. Baily

J.Pointeck

C. Bunch

G. Smith

H. Adkinson

H. Fraser

G. Hall

R. Kittlewell

E. Dansberry

G. Lewis

R. Laydon

R. Mastin

H. Bagnell

Rangers wounded

LT.Cosman

R. Gilland

R. Meeks

H. Mansfield

J. Girolmo

J. Phillips

J. Reddy

H. Kloke

D. Olson

W. Sharp

L. Thibodeaux

R. Morgan

J. Lisi

A. Dobson

V. Ruiz

F. Nickels

J. Wilson

R. Bayne

E. Meyer

B. Warne

J. Anglin

V. Bac

J. Cujdik

R. Pittman

L. Villa

G. Dahl

G. Voss

E. Baker

W. Cole

J. Evans

R. Gilland

A. Adams

E. Schroader

C. Hayden

E. Meyers

A. Bukary

另附第1空降游骑兵连被俘人员名单,红字为引用文章作者,

1st Ranger Company POW

(Date is the date Ranger died or was declared dead. If there is a second date, POW was released.)

Carrier, Charles 19 May 1951

Dansberry, Earl 19 May 1951

Dubereil, Ed May 1951 – Aug 1953

Grimm, Norman 12 Jan 1951

Lublinski, George S. 31 May 1951

Taken by Russians?

Lukasik, Tony May 1951 – Aug 1953

Lutz, John W. 31 July 1951 Ramatowski, Alex May 1951- Aug 1953

Rhatigan, Bill May 1951 – Aug 1953

Rollins, Charles May 1951 – Aug 1953

Spence, John 20 May 1952

Villa, Lew May 1951 – Aug 1953

Waters, Eunis G. 30 Jan 1951Feb 1951

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

Hill 710战斗中被志愿军狙击手击毙的中尉A. Herman

家园 活,还是这事啊

萨兄辛苦,想搞清这些东东确实很不容易

兄初提打空降兵,半年前了吧,当时因为没有时间地点,只是根据感觉,我以为与187伞兵团交手的可能性不大,若真吃准是伞兵,或许应该到突击连(游骑兵)里去试试

逸云三洲:萨

不久萨兄提供的一些战斗情况(老兵回忆),地点时间虽仍模糊,但根据相关情形,我猜测战斗时间“可能在5月17日之后5月底之前,很可能是5月21日这几天里”

逸云三洲:一点情况

地点则“应该为洪川江以南,在佳日里一线”,

逸云三洲:那么

这次萨兄讲的时间地点详细些了,若果是“小理山背后的问礼里和580.7高地(问礼里北山)”这一带,那么,应该是与美七师交手了,此战美军第2游骑兵连也参战了,该连战斗简情况:

1,战斗地点581高地,参战官兵六十五人,

2,第一天在炮火支援下守山三个小时,被打下阵地去,但未全军覆没

3,第二天反击战斗一小时,重回阵地

4,关于伤亡情况,有关描述为:第一天在伤亡过半后被迫撤下阵地。第二天伤亡情况则无描写。另外,该部指挥官坤少校并没有阵亡

匆匆查了一下,当时第2游骑兵连战斗状况大致是如此吧。与老兵回忆的那一战,有不尽相同处。并且我注意到,第2游骑兵连战场讲明是581高地,而不是无名高地,该连也不是被摸营一下子打掉,对战了数小时才败下阵去。鉴于第二游骑兵连并不是唯一的参战部队,而是会同美七师其他部队一起在这一带攻防的,那未萨讲的无名高地战斗,会不会是白天占领581高地后,夜里进一步向无名高地去摸营,被打的则是另一支美军部队(即不是第二游骑兵连,而是共同参加是次战斗的其他步兵部队)?应该是可能的。要进一步查明了。

顺便说一下吧,看到有网友讲第一游骑兵连,当时该连属于第七十二坦克营营长指挥的一个特遣队,确实也在激战,但不是在同一个战区里,不会跟566团交手吧,

家园 下面daharry查出5月20日,187团阵亡14人

“4,若果是这个时间段,187团伞兵的可能性很小,当时该部已转十军序列,22日就已投入与志愿军第三兵团所部的战斗中去。当然,我无法完全排除,该部在调归十军之前,确实当过西线预备队。”

187团伞兵的可能性还是很大的,19号那天阵亡14人,不会是个小战斗,应该是在当西线预备队期间?晕倒,那就是566团那三个半残连队一仗干翻两支伞兵部队了,不知道有没别的步兵单位,伞兵阵亡15人,在炮火支援下抵抗3小时后撤,伤亡比例算1比3,那就是伤亡60个伞兵了,,,

其中一个少校一个中尉,

6.MAJ CHARLES LEONARD CARRIER 少校

14.1LT ALPHARD R VISMOR 中尉

^_^,不知道是哪个栽在老唐手上

家园 不是

187团在另一个战区,你说这些人则是第一游骑兵连的,附属187团,其实当时也不是跟着该团作战,而是与72坦克营及23步兵团一个营组成特遣队。该连后来去增援38步兵团,你提的人员是在710高地伤亡俘的,

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