主题：【原创】一些凌乱的想法，想到哪说到哪 -- puma2011
家园 Chinese elites Parisihg:
Really? so do you find those over-confidient Chinese elites more offensive than the servile Chinese elites back in the 80s-90s?
I can not bear the Chinese elites in the 80s-90s,
They certainly have excellent language skills and thorough understanding of western culture.
But they do not have the backbone to make a decent human.
are you one of them? haha
家园 80，90年代那些不算elite 中国的elite只能在统治阶层内部出现。你说那些只能算御用文人，各为其主算是最高追求了。中国孔老二之后在文化界就没有elite了。
80，90年代是神仙打架，与这些文人的本身能力素质甚至政治观点都没有决定性的关系，你对着他们较劲根本是bark up the wrong tree.
parishg自然不是elite，河里的人也就忙总算沾点边，还是外围的。
家园 小心美国玩英国人那一手 撤出留下一个动乱的世界，挑拨矛盾，然后火中取栗。
如果科技升级成功，的确有机会像二战那时一样重新以救世主身份在一片废墟后主宰，当然这是没有定数的阴谋论，算是YY吧。
家园 UK has been a successful global player in GLOBAL politics for 300 years. Just like Roman elites 2000 years ago, UK elites played nations like masters played chess.
Before Chinese, there were Spanish empire, Sweden, France, Germany, Turkish empire, all mid-east tribes, all Indian kings/khans, Russian empire, etc. All defeated by UK one by one along the path of history. As an overseas Chinese, I was still impressed by the awe enjoyed by the Flag Jack in Latin America, India-Pakistan and mid-east. English elites learned to convert its disadvantage as a multi-ethnic nation (scots, celtic, Welsh, etc) into a great advantage: expertise in managing a multi-cultural empire.
Chinese elites, in the past 300 years, have barely stepped out of their own national boundary. The troubling sign is that decades after 1949, Han Chinese ruling elites (不如满族统治者）still could not handle two minority regions: Tibet and Xingjiang. Out of the national boundary, I can barely see diplomatic success of Chinese Han elites in Vietnam, North Korea, Mongolia, Burma, Thailand (look at what happened to the recent pro-China Thai PM), Laos, Cambodia, or in Afganistan, or other mid-Asia muslim nations. One failure after another.
I hope I can have confidence just like 五毛们 on this forum. But bloody cold facts do not help at all. 五毛们嘴巴硬有屁用。
家园 UK parishg:
Your eulogy of British empire is embarrassing, even for the most avid imperial apologist.
Your grand linear theory of British triumphalism is rather fictitious, any serious British historian would readily concede that Britain acquired its empire by an “ absence of mind”. British elites DID NOT understand how the empire worked. A historical event vividly revealed their ignorance of its working mechanism. I assume are aware of this symbolic event, will not elaborate here.
I am surprised you are still impressed by British’s expertise in managing a multi-cultural empire. I hope Margaret Thatcher shared your faith in this British Specialty when she was confronted with Irish hunger strikes.
On the eve of her trip to Africa, Margaret Thatcher was anxious of being hit by local protesters. Obviously British prime minister was not as confidant in her ability to handle African as you do. haha.
UK elites DID NOT play nations like masters played chess. it had its share of stupidity. UK’s disastrously handling of Suez crisis left Its prime minister, Eden, a nervous breakdown and abrupt resignation. Prior to this humiliation, British prided himself as Greek, who can always persuade the Americans, the Romans, do what British wanted so long as Britain can make Americans believe it is their idea. It was a dangerous faith they gave up since Suez and picked up by you. And how about EEC fiasco? British prime minister Harold Macmillan who prided himself of his deft handling of De Gaulle got kicked out of EEC.
In the postwar years, UK showed inability to manage its special relationship with America, commonwealth, ethic riots in Africa, continent Europe, etc.
Harold Macmillan, the British prime minister, in his letter to Queen, lamented” so much attempted, so little achieved”.
In his diary, he gloomily entered “ bed at 3 am, slept badly” . it is nothing like a political master manipulating nations. Do you have him in mind when you are boasting UK's elites' statecraft? hahah
Would you give up reading historical fiction works by Niall Ferguson? haha
- 复 UK
家园 现在英国还能不能存在都成问题了 一群精英，为了选票，为了私利，为了反正是个人那点小算盘，就没一个有卵子的站出来为国家力挽狂澜，取消苏格兰议会，阻止公投。
要么英国的精英也就是没担当的政客小丑，要么就是英国的真精英根本进不了领导层。
实际，哪个国家兴起勃发的时代，不论领导还是民众都是精神面貌极好的，衰落期就不要提了，都是一样的猥琐。中国兴废多次，国人应该更懂这个道理，可怜那么多人现在还在仰视洋人。
- 复 UK
家园 Flower you, but can't agree the opinion of this essay.
You set up some downside examples of Britain Empire statesmen's statecraft, but the Pax Britannica is, sorry was, still here. Anglo-Saxon establishments reigned over the earth for as many as almost 400 years from 1667 when Britain navy defeated Dutch navy in the Second Anglo-Dutch War, and in the wake of it Britain had seized the world's sea power, until HMS Prince of Wales was bombarded and sunk by Japaness navy in Dec 9, 1941.
We cant look down on such a tiger, despite it is a paper tiger, but if we neglected the TITAN, it would be a real tiger who can eat people. The Levitan once ruled all the sea routes and fatal straits and strategic areas of the whole world for hundreds years, as well as various cultures and peoples, which was the reality.
That is Anglo-saxon empires reigned and reign over the earth, not China or Russia or French Or Deutschland. Unfortunately, but true. Anglo-saxon elites have the practiacal experiences to rule the whole world, and we have not. Should not we learn such a marvelous statecraft?
- 复 UK
家园 Yay Finally, someone who reads history.
Someone else should perhaps go read fantasy at Oxbridge.
家园 大英帝国有辉煌的历史，可惜已经是历史 大英帝国有辉煌的历史，当然值得尊敬尊崇学习，但由此就应该模仿效颦学步？
还别说，模仿大英帝国的例子还真有，那就是万世一系的大日本帝国，日本子邯郸学步有什么下场，联合国五大常任理事国都有评判的权力。更可贵的是，日本子好像还没有放弃模仿大英帝国的梦想，那很可能在咱们有生之年有机会温习一下历史。要锻炼身体健康长寿以免错过哟。
The troubling sign is that decades after 1949, Han Chinese ruling elites (不如满族统治者）still could not handle two minority regions: Tibet and Xingjiang. Out of the national boundary, I can barely see diplomatic success of Chinese Han elites in Vietnam……以上这段大失教授的水准啊，逻辑何在？历史常识何在？
家园 无统治能力这点确实赞同，盲目乐观不可取 照这趋势发展，我相信有生之年能看见中国GDP和军力超过美国，但是统治世界确实不能只依赖武力。你说的Chinese elites接触不多河里也就忙总能算。即便是他也算是被打压的外围，没能进入圈内。所以只能说说自己对中国文化上的感觉，算是抛砖引玉吧。我觉得 that bloody cold facts 原因就是儒家根本没有扩张能力，只是个维稳工具罢啦。这点从五代十国小小的南汉还能臣越南，而宋朝却只能册封1010年祖籍福建的华侨李公蕴为交趾郡王。而且李朝并未对此感恩戴德，当李朝政权逐步稳固，越南和中国越走越远。李朝发明了自己的文字，割裂了与中国的文化脐带。忘恩负义的李朝李仁宗大举攻宋，大开杀戒，仅在邕州就杀军民5万8千余。加上之前所杀的钦廉二州人，越南所杀获不下十万，连一些和尚道士也不能幸免。连小小的交趾（此时还没有统一南越）就能让宋朝受如此大打击，北宋真把中国人的脸丢尽了。
所以我觉得还是要到先秦文化里面去找，法家墨家或者别的毛主义
我们又不比西方人笨，只要Chinese elites 抛弃儒家厚德载物的思想，事情还大有可为。
家园 是不如满族统治阶层 至少还有个五族共和，现在的地盘也是满族人搞定的，后了丢了一块给老毛子，但是遇到中国走上坡路，还算都留在国境内了，但是按下葫芦瓢起来，没有从根上整合进来，至今问题丛生。
周边的问题大同小异，许多都是历史遗留下来，没有得到比较彻底的解决。前几十年眼界都放在那几根国境线的划分上，在几亩上折腾了几十年，现在在海洋上又在同样的问题上，几个村的农民为了水源土地打来打去，为了多产点余粮给地主家送去争得头破血流。
不过说回到UK，那套东西就是在西方也有人研究，的确是别具一格，前无古人，如果能够比较系统的学习，对中国的未来不啻是个很大的帮助，可惜国人眼中看重的仍然是现代的“奇技淫巧”，对西方文化中比较深层的东西不屑一顾，生怕灭了自家的威风，中国文化的“免疫系统”非常之强，只能接受落后的外来文化，就是落后外来文化中那些优于自己的地方也不能吸收保存，比如你说的满清在统治上的长处。
这里不能不说历史上唯一的例外还就是共产国际，这种虽然被西方视为“邪教”，但多少具备了近代西方先进理念的思想，虽然最后是被本土化了，但多少是被主体文化吸收并成为至今统治阶层甚至现代中国的组织力量的源泉。但是这个过程却是通过血染了半壁江山才完成的。相当于大病一场。而结果是奠定了tg这个比国民党具备更多西方近代理念的新的统治者的合法性（台湾虽然生活中更加西化，但是统治阶级思想上更接近传统中国文化而不如大陆tg在思想上的西化）。
如果希望未来不再经过大放血的方式去吸收中国之外先进的文化，中国文化中的这个“免疫系统”就需要好好治理一下。不过这个课题太大，而后果难料，甚至中国统治阶层也不一定有这个能力或意志去下手。
通宝推：川普,parishg,李寒秋,家园 五族共和是民国提出来的 家园 您要是方便的话，倒是指引一下怎样“迅速从根上整合进来” 绕来绕去，除了一个“不如满族统治阶层”的结论，未见其明。秦皇汉武以来中国人几千年的努力在您眼里不值一提不屑一顾，好大的气魄。
中国文化的“免疫系统”非常之强，只能接受落后的外来文化，就是落后外来文化中那些优于自己的地方也不能吸收保存，比如你说的满清在统治上的长处。请给出这类结论的根据。
中国有几千年的历史，幅员辽阔，人口众多，地域差距也很大。没有自己的主体文化，那就是七块论的下场。有自己的魂自己的根才谈得上引进吸收，才谈得上独立思考，才可能存亡续绝几千年不绝如缕。
再说西方文化的好东西，就一定适应中国的实际需要？
比如俾斯麦羡慕英国外交系统的集体协调性，难道就要，就能照葫芦画瓢？
至于您说的“这个过程却是通过血染了半壁江山才完成的”，历史的发展已经很清楚，无论是用阶级斗争还是民族解放的观点来看都能知道这是历史的必然性。
家园 对西方文化中比较深层的东西不屑一顾，生怕灭了自家的威风 you speak what I have in mind. But I will not dare to say on this forum. hehe.
Lots of 50cents are already extremely mad at me.
汉文化也就同化同化落后的游牧民族，or 不如自己的农耕文明。遭遇工业文明连反抗的本钱都没有。一遇其他文明，不是极端自傲，根本不屑一顾，就是极端自卑（if defeated）。
现在好不容易靠WTO 创造的第二次工业化的（last time was in 1950s）稍微日子好过了一点，就屁股翘到天上去了。
通宝推：过堂风,家园 could not agree anymore 农耕文明是中华文化的核心特征之一