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主题:青铜时代(一) -- 匿名

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匿名 云南还好,还有民科安到非洲去了

脑洞大的吓人。

匿名 青铜时代(1.2)文明的认识误区

在一般的认知里,农耕文明是更先进的。

游牧文化就是强盗文化。

古代的道德观念无所谓对错,都是环境决定的。

不能用现在的观念判断过去的正义与否。

人类之初,狩猎与采集。

农耕由于能够在面积有限的地方养活更多的人,最终发展出更出色的文明。

但这不是绝对的。

停留在刀耕火种的时代,虽然也还是农耕,也谈不上更文明。

文明之初,游牧民族活动范围更大,学习变更机会也很大。

甚至有部分交叉,游牧河农耕同时的部落。

中国西北,汉武帝的良家子部队,就基本是这种情况。一直消耗到隋唐,才彻底胡化。

游牧民族在某段时期,文明高于周边农耕民族是有可能的。

公元五世纪,欧亚中部,再次出现掌握冶金部落。

这个部落就是被柔然从叶塞尼河抓来的突厥。

柔然把他们安置到阿尔泰山附近(神奇的地方),当冶金奴隶“锻奴”

突厥人有自己的文化传统,狼图腾,并对中亚民族有超强的同化能力,有突厥泛化,一旦突厥化,永远突厥化。

上与下,

花旦与小丑,

没有什么是永远绝对黑白分明,

火车快开,

放开喉咙长啸:

Wu,Wu,Wuuuuuuuu------

家园 连行内权威专家都脑洞到云南,民科自然会脑洞到非洲去

夏商周断代,铅矿锡矿的来源是个重要问题,这么多年没少拨钱,讽刺的是,业内对全国现存的都是离河南非常远的铅矿锡矿进行了详尽的调查,却没想着查一下河南是否有未发现的铅矿锡矿。。。

如果这些专家能够转世到三千年以后,肯定也会下结论:进入工业社会后,中国一直缺乏铁矿资源,无论是流传下来的文字还是考古发掘,都可以证实该国铁矿石主要依赖进口,甚至还为了争夺朝鲜的铁矿资源爆发了战争。。。

通宝推:月之回忆,审度,
家园 问题在于

The Genesis of the High Cultures

Voegelin: I would like very much to draw your attention to a few points of Professor Dempf’s lecture that are of great importance for the genesis of certain institutions.

Two years ago, when I spoke with Dempf about matters regarding the genesis of those cultures that he likes to call the master high-cultures [Herrenhochkulturen], he was still of the opinion that they arose through shepherd peoples imposing themselves upon agricultural peoples. This idea concerning the genesis of high culture was maintained by liberal Marxists (most prominently, Oppenheimer) writing at about 1900. Since that time, ethnology and the history of ancient cultures have made progress.

Today one can say with certainty that there has never been an imposition of shepherd peoples upon agricultural peoples. And not only was there no such imposition: Good ethnologists like Mr. Baumann in Munich assure us that the horse-mounted peoples that play such a large role in the work of Alfred Weber and Rüstow never existed either. So now, the problem of how the institutions of the high cultures arose must be posed from another angle entirely. I do not know to what degree Dempf has returned to the sources here. According to the current state of archeology and ethnography, the thesis of a “tribal federation” that originates through a religiously and spiritually gifted personality appears to be the correct one. The genesis of the Indus civilization in particular can scarcely be explained in any other way. With cultures like the Chinese and Egyptian, we can still accept a gradual emergence of the institutions. But the geography of the Indus Valley,for climactic and territorial reasons, is of the type that can only be settled and organized by a planned undertaking and not by small tribes or groups. Thus, the only possibility consisted in the formation of this kind of tribal federation from the neighboring mountain tribes of the Iranian highlands. Then this was subordinated to a dynasty whose spiritual power could also create a new cult for the federation.

Similar processes can be observed in the genesis and decline of the empire of the Huns. Here, too, we find tribal federations that arise through a gifted, dynastic personality and disintegrate with the death of the dynasty. We can now form an approximate picture of how the so-called high cultures arose.

Added to this is the question of the external cause. Why does such a thing happen? And further, why does it take place everywhere at approximately the same time? Very interesting investigations by ethnologists at Princeton have revealed that external factors cause settlements to be made in river valleys or in similar locations that are very unsuited to settlement. The occasion for this having taken place is found in the desiccation of what has come to be called the Great Desert Belt. Under the pressure of this development the agricultural peoples leave entire large areas that are no longer inhabitable. Thus the federations are formed that settle in the still fruitful river valleys—in the Hoang Ho Valley, for example, or the Indus Valley, the Nile Valley, etc. This is the external pressure that works as a motivating force here. This seems to me to be very important for the problems of the institutional sphere.

Now how do things stand with the polis? We do not know how the polis actually arose; we can only make conjectures. One of the best seems to be the following: The poleis originated as the settlements of ship crews that fled in the face of the Doric migration. This dislocation appears to have been the organizational impulse to create new cultic units: namely, the poleis. Beginning in Anatolia, the polis expands to the border area of the Doric migration over the islands, into Italy; and only at the very end does it include the Greek mainland. Athens is the last to enter the sphere of the polis culture. This, therefore, would be one possible way in which, under external pressure, warrior groups and their ship crews formed settlement communities and developed new cults.Thus, the factor upon which Dempf places particular emphasis remains at the center—that the great foundations of community are always cultic and divine creations of some kind [ . . . ]——《The Drama of Humanity and Other Miscellaneous Papers 1939-1985》P161-3

我觉得问题在于,这个“一般的认知”是被制造出来的。也许在19世纪末、20世纪初比较流行,与当时的民族主义不无关系。但后来的研究中,显然不再局限于此。

况且,六朝历史也告诉我们,民族(民族地理学主体)是什么并不重要,他们都华夏化了。

不过,“一般”说游牧民族的时候,并不是文明概念,而是文化概念。指的也不是文化共同体,而是文明的高低——价值观念。比如,掠夺。

我们可以看到崛起的游牧民族标志之一就是,变得“文明”了,相比之前更有“秩序”。虽然实际情况天差地别。比如元朝靠回族行政管理,对于帝国,和没人管差不多。

匿名 商城对金属资源的控制力度很强

若论文明的扩张性,商周秦汉都很厉害。商城对地方的控制很强,早期都城设在郑州,然后向南安排了湖北武汉的盘龙城据点,属汉江,在江西新干大洋洲的据点,属赣江,在湖南宁乡设立据点,属湘江,另外在东南淮河流域的安徽有据点,在西边的渭水流域,周人下山后的老家旁边有据点,在济南济水流域有据点,往北就更不用说了,辐射力一直过燕山。往西到汾河流域,然后跨黄河跟陕北的鬼方势力斗争。最新的三星堆,发现了跟商代几乎一样的大口尊,目前不能说三星堆是商代控制,但不排除是殷商控制下的长江流域的势力,远上岷江流域帮三星堆铸造青铜器。

而所有这些青铜器的铸造,在一定时期内,其原材料,都在殷商的统一控制之下的。

家园 我对西方史有两个不解

一是古代先进文明全灭。二是文物感觉不靠谱。

家园 古印度也灭了

国内新石器时代的文化类型,多数(主体)也没流传下去。

文物主要是真假混杂,难以分辨。但就史料来说,至少可以证明的确存在。最多不是平常人想象的那么高级,尤其是杂志和自媒体上的……他们本来就在混淆概念,贩卖想象。

家园 或者那个锡矿已经开采殆尽几千年了

我们今天看来毫无开采价值的小矿,在远古时候说不定被视为惊天宝藏。。。。。

匿名 何新伪史说出来后,已经形成影响

就说文字破译吧,推己及人,确实疑窦重重。

汉字几千年一脉传承,甲骨文大半破译不了。西夏文才多长时间,还有密切交流,如果不是发现一本《番汉合时掌中珠》,也是天书。

还有发音,中国人说三里不同音,十里不同俗,如果不是有韵书,汉语古音也很难揣度。包括他们自己语音文字几百年也变化很大,可人家就能以此破译几千年前的文字,未免天书奇谭。

家园 说的只是存在

并没有说具体如何。比如线形文字之类,出问题的是文化研究(复原),不是它到底有没有。虽然的确也有造假的时候。

主要现在文化研究的思路不正,实际上是搞线性历史、历史创生论,也就是文化中心主义。不管其他文明如何,自己就是根,没别的可能。大抵如此。不管形式上多坚持多元。

家园 一直以为本地没有才去外地找的

结果是反过来……这不就是典型的理论先行么。因为外来,就不找了……

家园 说个民科思路

这是对象逻辑的基本思维决定的。

可以在所有讲逻辑、本体论的文明和学说中看到这样的现象。谱系、传承、影响、发展。无非是说历史是以自己为主体,一点一点进步的。他们也特别强调谱写历史,证明自己的确如此。顺便也把自己的突破扔掉了,有智者毕竟少。即便他们没这种动机也是一样,这是史观决定的。

追求第一因,就得明晰因果。但是信息有限,只能根据现有材料。材料无法等于现实,最终只是理想构建……甚至和现实毫无关系。

然而这是权威假设,逻辑完美、证据充分、自我圆满。不管怎么说,都有人会当作现实。

而且他们还特别喜欢论辩,喜欢把自己的成功收录进去,进而后人也就发现了失败和自吹自擂。古代的就是慧立、利玛窦这种……现代的就是达尔文进化论这种(不是否认进化论)……用自己的框架去定义人家,当然是你赢了。

可现实是,无论是思想还是实物,历史都是一阵一阵的,忽有忽没,说不上什么滚动发展。

而且,如果以实物立论,普遍联系,有些地方的发展水平明显更高。比如中国的乐器(论)、榫卯,所以他们必须指定更加基本的形式作为起源,比如木头钻个洞组起来都需要传播才能学会。或者不讲起源了,只讲后世发展,最终和骗傻子没什么区别了。

---

这其实就是形而上自然主义(机械唯物主义)的问题,把逻辑当现实了。首先,把抽象定义等同实在本身。其次,把逻辑(定义)发展等于现实发展。最后,把逻辑构建等于现实构建。然而现实总是会打脸的。

他们忘了是自己的定义决定了现实,不再从现实中寻求更好的定义,只能被不断打脸。

家园 伪史说并非何新首提

只是何新有点影响力,并持之以恒的坚持伪史说。

何新共济会说就被骂疯子,再提伪史说,就社死了。

匿名 请教:三门峡以下、黄河两侧地表,今天相比商周

大约抬高了多少米?这个地表抬高的范围有多大?

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